Rotary processing with Xtol

[Tim Stapp]

If everything comes together, I am picking up a new to me JOBO CPE2-non plus next weekend.

My normal developer has been Xtol. I've been researching threads here and elsewhere for published starting times for Arista EDU Ulta 200 in Xtol rotary processed. I've gotten my best results in Paterson tanks with 6 minutes per manufacturer's datasheet for small tank processing. The same datasheet indicates reducing times by 15% for rotary processing. JOBO and Kodak both say not to use a prewash with Xtol.

My thinking is this: If I do a 5 minute prewash and use my standard 6 minutes time in the JOBO, is my world going to screech to a halt, catapulting me off into the universe? Or, will it be "try it and see?"

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I use XTOL, diluted 1+1 in a Jobo. No experience the Arista film though. I use a pre-soak and think you may need to reduce times.

 

[Tim Stapp]

I thought that the reason for the presoak was to use hand inversion times?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I'd suggest running a test roll through at your standard time and seeing what you get. For reference I process Kodak T-Max 400 - 8 minutes @ 24ºC - 1+1 dilution.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have used replenished XTOL in my Jobo for years. I use the rotary times and the only thing that I had to change was add one minute to the 68 degree F time for HP5+. The other thing is to NOT prewash Tri-X when using XTOL or replenished XTOL ===> Kodak and Jobo agree on that.

 

[Tim Stapp]

Thanks Tom, I'm not picking it up until next weekend, provided it works as described. After talking on the phone with the gentleman selling, I'm sure it will.
I shoot a couple of sheets, run one through and see what develops (pun intended).

The unit looks pristine in the photos. I'm excited as all get out. After I received an inoperative ATL2+ thrown in with a 4x5 camera purchase, I've lusted after one. This is the first one that I have seen available when the funds were available. Oh nuts, I probably just jinxed myself

 

[Bruce Osgood]

Do a search for Kodak publication J-109. Everything (almost) you need to know.... to make educated analysis of your results. No pre-wash for Jobo.

 

[Rick A]

Kodak manuals almost invariably say to reduce times by 15% for rotary processing. When all else fails, test.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I use a short pre-wash in the Jobo. The subject of pre-washing or not has been previously discussed on APUG.

 

[TimVermont]

Please observe Kodak & JoBo's required minimum of 200ml XTOL stock/roll in your initial testing. The JoBo 1500 series tanks will let you use as little as 140ml/roll but this produces under development on Agfa APX and Fuji Neopan films. It may or may not be a problem with the Arista film you're using but you don't need any additional complications while you get set up. I use XTOL 1+1 at 24C (higher temp allows for summer time processing w/o an ice bath) with no pre-wet and am pleased with the results.

 

[Tim Stapp]

I believe that the Kodak datasheets say 100 ml per roll. Maybe 200 ml solution at 1+1?

 

[TimVermont]

I believe that the Kodak datasheets say 100 ml per roll. Maybe 200 ml solution at 1+1?

Please see: www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/TB001_xtrol.pdf

You may be able to use less for your preferred film. Or not.

 

[Tim Stapp]

There seems to be a discrepancy. Kodak Pub. J 109 under the capacity section says the one liter full strength will do 15 rolls. Jobo says 5. Under the same section, Kodak recommends 100 ml per roll stock solution when diluting. So, who is correct. Kodak? JOBO? I'm just trying to figure out starting times for a film that only has times published for hand tank agitation.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I have tended towards three rolls per 1000ml solution at 1+1, but 100ml stock solution per roll is probably fine, i.e 5 rolls per 1000ml of 1+1 solution. - may depend on film type, Delta 3200 will need more development than FP4 Plus for example.

 

[Neal]

Dear Tim,

If you want to try it, just try it. What's the worst thing that could happen? Just beware of confirmation bias when you go to print. ;-)

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

 

[Bruce Osgood]

Dear Tim,

If you want to try it, just try it. What's the worst thing that could happen? Just beware of confirmation bias when you go to print. ;-)

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

I agree.

I've been using Xtol 1+1 in rotary Jobo for a couple of years now. J-109 is the documentation I follow. Jobo has been thru some ups and downs in recent years but they know their products. You will find Kodak and Ilford very often will not agree and in fact Ilford won't acknowledge there is a Kodak.

If my negs are poorly developed it is me, not Ilford or Kodak or Jobo that has committed an error. When my negatives are crap, my exposure was also crap.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Bruce,

After re-reading the Kodak documentation I'm going to try XTOL without a pre-soak in the Jobo.

Tom

 

[TimVermont]

.... I'm just trying to figure out starting times for a film that only has times published for hand tank agitation.

6 minutes =360 Seconds *0.85= 306 Seconds = 5 minutes & 06 seconds.

As this machine is new to you, verify that drum loaded with water runs smoothly on the rollers & that rotation direction reverses. Verify JoBo tank temperature 20C with a known thermometer - in my experience they are very consistent once set, but markings on the control knob may be out of calibration.

Use minimum 200ml stock so there is no question of developer sufficiency and try out 5 minutes. If overdeveloped, consider moving to 1+1 as development times shorter than 5 minutes can be difficult to manage.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[klownshed]

If you get poor results with those times, try a pre-wash next. I went through this process (albeit not with xtol) and found a pre wash was essential.

I started with my Jobo by following Ilford's instructions not to pre wash and to reduce development times by 15% and wasn't happy with the results, and couldn't really work with the resulting negatives. Since then I've followed Jobo's instructions to pre wash and it's worked every time, no matter the film or developer.

 

[Richard Man]

Very simple. I do it all the time.

Whatever dilution of Xtol you use, make sure at least 100ml of stock per roll of 35mm/120 or 4 sheets of 4x5.

Just use the "standard" times you find in Digital Truth etc. You do NOT need to use pre-wash OR reduce the time, when using Xtol in Jobo.

Xtol is the only developer that Kodak tested to have that property. Other developers need either reduction in time or pre-soak.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Well, I've now processed two rolls of film (35mm and 120) and both look fine at first glance.

Tom

 

[pentaxuser]

Using Xtol stock does represent a saving for rotary processing as the tank needs 140ml for rotary with 35mm compared to 250ml for inversion but at 1+1 rotary still requires 100ml plus 100ml water and inversion only 125ml plus 125 water more so the saving at 25ml of stock is very small. The savings are of course larger with 120 at 240ml stock rotarycompared to 485ml stock for inversion per roll and at 1+1 the savings while not so great are still quite appreciable. So I suppose that my conclusion is that in terms of Xtol saved it hardly matters for 35mm but will add up if you are a 120 user, especially a stock as opposed to a 1+1 user.

I suppose rotary allows you to do something else but I am not a good multi-skiller over short periods

That leaves the question of whether rotary produces better negs of course than inversion but that seems unlikely

pentaxuser

 

[Early Riser]

If everything comes together, I am picking up a new to me JOBO CPE2-non plus next weekend.

My normal developer has been Xtol. I've been researching threads here and elsewhere for published starting times for Arista EDU Ulta 200 in Xtol rotary processed. I've gotten my best results in Paterson tanks with 6 minutes per manufacturer's datasheet for small tank processing. The same datasheet indicates reducing times by 15% for rotary processing. JOBO and Kodak both say not to use a prewash with Xtol.

My thinking is this: If I do a 5 minute prewash and use my standard 6 minutes time in the JOBO, is my world going to screech to a halt, catapulting me off into the universe? Or, will it be "try it and see?"

I always use a 5 minute pre-soak with distilled water in my Jobo. Reducing your time by 10-15% makes sense. However, I strongly suggest to shoot some test rolls and then tweak processing time before processing anything of value. I would also suggest shooting a test roll of a very even and detail-less background, like a clear sky or a light colored wall and test for any streaking caused by the rotation. Sometimes you have to use a rotation speed setting different than Jobo recommends, I actually agitate far slower than the Jobo recommendation.

 

[Tim Stapp]

6 minutes =360 Seconds *0.85= 306 Seconds = 5 minutes & 06 seconds.

As this machine is new to you, verify that drum loaded with water runs smoothly on the rollers & that rotation direction reverses. Verify JoBo tank temperature 20C with a known thermometer - in my experience they are very consistent once set, but markings on the control knob may be out of calibration.

Use minimum 200ml stock so there is no question of developer sufficiency and try out 5 minutes. If overdeveloped, consider moving to 1+1 as development times shorter than 5 minutes can be difficult to manage.

Let us know how it goes.

My handy calculator is different than yours. It showed 5.1 minutes -. I do appreciate the suggestions. I have a box with 45 sheets left, so I'll expose a couple and see how they compare. Otherwise, I may just switch to Ilford's product (FP4+).

 

[Tim Stapp]

Thank You to everyone that responded. I'm excited to get this and am looking forward to learning the ins and outs of rotary processing, simultaneously learning the LF side of things. What a deep, deep rabbit hole I embarked upon -.

I'll probably start by shooting a couple sheets of the Arista (Fomapan) film and process one at 5 minutes& 6 seconds (5.1 minutes) and one at 6 minutes with a 5 minute presoak and compare the prints.