Rotary processing and stop bath/fixer times

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

I know that the rule of thumb when converting development times from inversion agitation to rotary agitation is to reduce the time by 10-15%. But I've searched and haven't read anything about the stop bath and fixer times for rotary processing.

Is it safe to assume that they remain the same as for inversion agitation except agitated continuously? i.e. if using Ilford Ilfostop, for example, one would rotate the tank continuously for 10 seconds before pouring it out? And if the fix time is 5 mins for inversion agitation, then it'll require 5 mins of continuous rotary agitation?

ic-racer · Aug 3, 2022

I use one minute of stop and five to seven for rapid fix with rotary.
Do you have the Jobo manual? Lots of information in there. Probably available on line too.

I use one minute minimum for the times because that is the smallest increment on my timer.

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

ic-racer said:
I use one minute of stop and five to seven for rapid fix with rotary.
Do you have the Jobo manual? Lots of information in there. Probably available on line too.

I use one minute minimum for the times because that is the smallest increment on my timer.

Thanks. No, I don't have the manual. I only have the Jobo roller, not one of the more automated machines, and it came with zero information. I'll try and dig up the manual online.

Rick A · Aug 3, 2022

logan2z said:
I know that the rule of thumb when converting development times from inversion agitation to rotary agitation is to reduce the time by 10-15%. But I've searched and haven't read anything about the stop bath and fixer times for rotary processing.

Is it safe to assume that they remain the same as for inversion agitation except agitated continuously? i.e. if using Ilford Ilfostop, for example, one would rotate the tank continuously for 10 seconds before pouring it out? And if the fix time is 5 mins for inversion agitation, then it'll require 5 mins of continuous rotary agitation?

You're fine with 10 seconds for stop bath, use normal time for which ever film for fixing, no time adjustment for rotary.

MattKing · Aug 3, 2022

I use one minute for Kodak stop bath and a Beseler rotating agitator, because that gives me enough time to easily fill the measuring graduate with the first batch of fixer.
You probably can't do it for too long. Ten seconds is quite short, if you are trying to be consistent.
And for fixer, this is how I handle the issue: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...ixing-procedure-for-black-white-negatives.75/

Rick A · Aug 3, 2022

MattKing said:
I use one minute for Kodak stop bath and a Beseler rotating agitator, because that gives me enough time to easily fill the measuring graduate with the first batch of fixer.
You probably can't do it for too long. Ten seconds is quite short, if you are trying to be consistent.
And for fixer, this is how I handle the issue: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...ixing-procedure-for-black-white-negatives.75/

I have my graduates filled and ready sitting in a tempering bath(my DR is around 65f)I use PMK and two 30 second water rinses for stop bath then fix.

mshchem · Aug 3, 2022

Kodak and Ilford have clear instructions. If you have fresh rapid fix and conventional film it's pretty darn quick. Tmax films are a different story.

xkaes · Aug 3, 2022

As mentioned, stop bath is pretty easy. Any reasonable amount of time will work -- unless you are over diluting the stop bath (unlikely). Some people just use water instead of stop.

Fixing depends on the fixer, dilution, etc. You can take someone else's word for it -- or run simple tests yourself. An inadequately fixed film or print won't last too long:

Test for proper fixation (the removal of all unexposed silver by the fixer), as follows

A. Fix, wash and dry an unexposed, undeveloped sheet of the selected paper using any desired fixer, time and dilution. Normally, it is best to start with the manufacturer's recommended time and dilution rate.
B. On the emulsion side of the paper, apply one drop of Rapid Selenium Toner concentrate.
C. Wait two minutes.
D. Any yellowing indicates residual silver. Increase the amount of time in the fixer and retest until no yellowing is noticeable..
E. Test for exhaustion of the fixer, as follows:
- 1. Take two oz of the used fixer.
- 2. Add two drops of test solution such as Hypocheck:
  - potassium iodide 0.01g
  - water 0.05ml
F. Shake.
G. Wait two minutes.
H. The solution should be clear. If it displays any milkiness, the fixer is exhausted -- decrease the dilution of the fixer and run the test again using a sheet of paper.
I. If the fixer clears and no yellow stain appears on the paper, the test is passed; increase the dilution of the fixer and repeat the test until it fails.

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

mshchem said:
Kodak and Ilford have clear instructions.

My question was specifically about rotary processing and the effect (if any) on stop bath/fixing times.

I had looked at the data sheets for Ilford Ilfostop and Rapid Fixer and there is no mention of rotary processing. The data sheet for Tri-X does talk about it in terms of the development process and adjustment of times, but that's all I found.

It sounds like I can just use the same times for stop bath/fixer that I've been using for inversion processing.

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2022

The time reductions are for the developer or first developers for color film only, the stop bath, fixer, and wash times remain the same. For washing I use 500ml water every 30 second [ok sometimes I am a little slow and it gets to 45 or 50 second] for 6 one liter bottles so 12 exchanges although 8 is enough. The I remove the film from the reels for the 30 to 60 second surfactant [i.e. PhotoFlo] or color final rinse.

Paul Howell · Aug 3, 2022

I recall that Unicolor film drums instructions stated to reduce development by 20% and use standard times for stop and fix.

Rick A · Aug 3, 2022

logan2z said:
My question was specifically about rotary processing and the effect (if any) on stop bath/fixing times.

I had looked at the data sheets for Ilford Ilfostop and Rapid Fixer and there is no mention of rotary processing. The data sheet for Tri-X does talk about it in terms of the development process and adjustment of times, but that's all I found.

It sounds like I can just use the same times for stop bath/fixer that I've been using for inversion processing.

You're good to go.

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
The time reductions are for the developer or first developers for color film only, the stop bath, fixer, and wash times remain the same.

Paul Howell said:
I recall that Unicolor film drums instructions stated to reduce development by 20% and use standard times for stop and fix.

Rick A said:
You're good to go.

Thanks all!

Alan9940 · Aug 3, 2022

ic-racer said:
I use one minute of stop and five to seven for rapid fix with rotary.

Same here.

pentaxuser · Aug 3, 2022

logan2z said:
It sounds like I can just use the same times for stop bath/fixer that I've been using for inversion processing.

Yes and be sure to tell us if rotary processing cures the problem

pentaxuser

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Yes and be sure to tell us if rotary processing cures the problem

pentaxuser

Will do.

mshchem · Aug 3, 2022

logan2z said:
My question was specifically about rotary processing and the effect (if any) on stop bath/fixing times.

I had looked at the data sheets for Ilford Ilfostop and Rapid Fixer and there is no mention of rotary processing. The data sheet for Tri-X does talk about it in terms of the development process and adjustment of times, but that's all I found.

It sounds like I can just use the same times for stop bath/fixer that I've been using for inversion processing.

I agree with you. I wouldn't change the stop and fixer times. XTOL has rotary instructions.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 3, 2022

logan2z said:
I know that the rule of thumb when converting development times from inversion agitation to rotary agitation is to reduce the time by 10-15%. But I've searched and haven't read anything about the stop bath and fixer times for rotary processing.

Is it safe to assume that they remain the same as for inversion agitation except agitated continuously? i.e. if using Ilford Ilfostop, for example, one would rotate the tank continuously for 10 seconds before pouring it out? And if the fix time is 5 mins for inversion agitation, then it'll require 5 mins of continuous rotary agitation?

Stop bath and fixer times are not reduced for rotary processing.

mshchem · Aug 3, 2022

THESE OLD GUIDES ARE STILL GOOD. FIX FOR 5 TO 10 MINUTES OR TWICE THE TIME IT TAKES TO CLEAR. MATT KING'S METHOD IS PERFECT. I FIX FOR A MINIMUM OF 5 MINUTES WITH FRESH RAPID FIXER WITH MY JOBO MACHINES, THEN 3 MINUTES WITH KODAK HYPO CLEARING AGENT TO GET RID OF THE DYE . YMMV MHOFWIW

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

RalphLambrecht said:
Stop bath and fixer times are not reduced for rotary processing.

Thanks for confirming.

Pieter12 · Aug 3, 2022

I use the same times for rotary as I do for inversion across the board. My normal development time is 7:30, so a 10% reduction would be 6:45, A 45 second difference. There is probably almost that much error in my timing with filling, sealing, uncapping and emptying already. I don't know that I have seen much difference in the negatives except large area tones (like a sky) are much more even with rotary processing.

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

Pieter12 said:
I don't know that I have seen much difference in the negatives except large area tones (like a sky) are much more even with rotary processing.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for. I shoot a lot of landscapes with large areas of clear sky and have had some issues with unevenness and, recently, air bells on 120 film. Fingers crossed that rotary processing helps with that.

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2022

Pieter12 said:
I use the same times for rotary as I do for inversion across the board. My normal development time is 7:30, so a 10% reduction would be 6:45, A 45 second difference. There is probably almost that much error in my timing with filling, sealing, uncapping and emptying already. I don't know that I have seen much difference in the negatives except large area tones (like a sky) are much more even with rotary processing.

35mm, 120 and 4"x5" films, color and black & white, develop must better and much more consistency with the Jobo processor. Why do it by hand if you have a processor.

MattKing · Aug 3, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
35mm, 120 and 4"x5" films, color and black & white, develop must better and much more consistency with the Jobo processor. Why do it by hand if you have a processor.

He doesn't have a processor - just the JOBO hand roller accessory.

logan2z · Aug 3, 2022

MattKing said:
He doesn't have a processor - just the JOBO hand roller accessory.

Yes, so it's 'by hand' either way

Rotary processing and stop bath/fixer times

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