Rolleiflex Automat K4B shutter release cable?

[David Polanski]

Hi all,
Per the thread title, I own a c1944 Model 2 K4B which, reportedly (https://www.rolleiclub.com/thedarkroom/?p=3087) does not have a threaded shutter release... I've been scouring the web for info on what to use for a release cable, but am really struggling to find any answers... 'hoping some kind & knowledgeable soul out there might be able to steer me in the right direction? I've been eyeing a wing-type watson edwards, but really have no idea if it'll fit the bill... any insights on all this would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks & cheers,
David

 

[Dan Daniel]

uh, isn't that hole on the right side near the shutter release a cable release socket? Give it a try.

 

[David Polanski]

uh, isn't that hole on the right side near the shutter release a cable release socket? Give it a try.

Thanks for that, Dan.
My understanding had been that that hole is the X-sync contact (flash)...?
It certainly does look like a shutter release cable socket, but I've been somewhat loathe to go poking at it with a threaded cable since the K4B explicitly does not have a threaded shutter release...

 

[Dan Daniel]

I'm pretty certain that it's the cable release. Any flash sync on this model is a retrofit. you'll see a definite X-sync post mounted, usually to the left of the "cable release socket.'

Underneath is a lever that pushes the shutter release. Rolleiflex shutter releases are a rather complicated series of lever and rotating parts. So even though the button you press is on the left, the actual release on the shutter block, hidden under the shroud, is usually near the center or going up the right side of the lower arc, a distance (well, a cm or more) from the shutter button. Lots of places to intervene and add an extra lever like underneath the opening.

 

[David Polanski]

I'm pretty certain that it's the cable release. Any flash sync on this model is a retrofit. you'll see a definite X-sync post mounted, usually to the left of the "cable release socket.'

Underneath is a lever that pushes the shutter release. Rolleiflex shutter releases are a rather complicated series of lever and rotating parts. So even though the button you press is on the left, the actual release on the shutter block, hidden under the shroud, is usually near the center or going up the right side of the lower arc, a distance (well, a cm or more) from the shutter button. Lots of places to intervene and add an extra lever like underneath the opening.

That's great info, Dan—many thanks. I'll give it a go then and hope for the best!

 

[Dan Daniel]

Although this is a Standard, sure looks as if it's the same design with the Automat film sensor added in.

https://www.cameramanuals.org/rolleiflex/rolleiflex_standard.pdf

 

[benjiboy]

Is there a thread on the base of the outside of the cable release socket, because a lot of old Rolleis used a Leica type cable release that fitted over the top of the button not into it ?.

 

[David Polanski]

Although this is a Standard, sure looks as if it's the same design with the Automat film sensor added in.

https://www.cameramanuals.org/rolleiflex/rolleiflex_standard.pdf

that's super interesting! it sure seems like the early automat was just the "new standard" model with, as you say, the addition of the film sensor, and indeed my rollei is visually identical in all apparent respects to the pictures shown there...
(btw, i've roughly dated/identified my rollei based on its physical appearance and characteristics, as well as the somewhat more questionable [apparently?] use of the serial#: 930535; https://www.rolleiclub.com/thedarkroom/?page_id=3583 & https://www.rolleiclub.com/thedarkroom/?p=3087)
unfortunately that manual seems something of a hodge-podge and is missing the details of that lower right socket (plate D, item 7 in the manual)... but if it's given that in the "new standard" model that socket is indeed for a cable release then it certainly would stand to reason that it would've remained so in the early automats (prior then i guess to the introduction of the x-sync).
you know, while i'm guilty of being a historian by profession (and so i suppose given to a certain 'bias', not to mention wordiness), i really find the history around these early instruments almost as fascinating/rewarding as their actual use!

 

[David Polanski]

Is there a thread on the base of the outside of the cable release socket, because a lot of old Rolleis used a Leica type cable release that fitted over the top of the button not into it ?.

thanks Benji.
There is no thread around the base of the outside of the righthand socket (or the lefthand shutter release for that matter), just the tapered threading on the inside...
i had been thinking that there must be some sort of special cable that would fit over the button, but without any sort of exterior threading can't see how it would work (unless a wing-type clamps on to the button somehow?)... but if that righthand socket works for a cable then all will be happily solved...
'just need to source an original (or at least vintange) & working cable for the thing... nothing modern or made-in-china on my rollei, thank-you-very-much!

 

[David Polanski]

unfortunately that manual seems something of a hodge-podge and is missing the details of that lower right socket (plate D, item 7 in the manual)...

doch! i hadn't carefully read the german text... D7 is indeed for the cable:
>>Die Ausloesung des durch den Filmtransport aufgezogenen Verschlusses erfolgt durch Niederdrucken des Gehaeuseouslosers D 6 oder durch Bedienung eines in die Buxe D 7 einoeschraubten Drahtausloesers.<<
("The shutter that is pulled open by the film transport is released by pressing down the D 6 housing release or by operating a wire release screwed into the [socket] D 7.")

Herzlichen Dank, Dan!

 

[Dan Daniel]

'just need to source an original (or at least vintange) & working cable for the thing... nothing modern or made-in-china on my rollei, thank-you-very-much!

Keep an eye on folder cameras in cases from that era. I've had a few cable releases drop out of the case when opening. Seems to have been a standard accessory for some cameras that people used and kept with the camera. Still using a 3 inch cable release that was in with an early 30s agfa folder...

 

[David Polanski]

Keep an eye on folder cameras in cases from that era. I've had a few cable releases drop out of the case when opening. Seems to have been a standard accessory for some cameras that people used and kept with the camera. Still using a 3 inch cable release that was in with an early 30s agfa folder...

That's a great tip, Dan—I'm beholden to you!

 

[benjiboy]

thanks Benji.
There is no thread around the base of the outside of the righthand socket (or the lefthand shutter release for that matter), just the tapered threading on the inside...
i had been thinking that there must be some sort of special cable that would fit over the button, but without any sort of exterior threading can't see how it would work (unless a wing-type clamps on to the button somehow?)... but if that righthand socket works for a cable then all will be happily solved...
'just need to source an original (or at least vintange) & working cable for the thing... nothing modern or made-in-china on my rollei, thank-you-very-much!

I think David one of these adaptors enables one to use a standard Compur thread cable release on a Rolle you screw it into the Compur cable release and it screws on the outside of the shutter release button base.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cable-Re...TNb6-Eslt-gbJb1Pfpnk7gyGwGn0Dw5hoCLhIQAvD_BwE

 

[reddesert]

I have a Rolleiflex that is the slightly later version, an Automat K4B2 or K4B model 3 or whatever. It has a flash sync socket at subject's lower right (photographer's lower left), where David's Rolleiflex appears to have a cable release socket.

On mine, the cable release threads are around the outside of the shutter release button, and accept a Leica-or-Nikon style cable release or adapter as benjiboy has suggested. There may be a little trim ring around the base of the shutter release button, which covers the threads. However, if there's no way for that trim ring to come off, the cable release socket on subject's lower right appears to be the only option.

 

[David Polanski]

I think David one of these adaptors enables one to use a standard Compur thread cable release on a Rolle you screw it into the Compur cable release and it screws on the outside of the shutter release button base.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cable-Re...TNb6-Eslt-gbJb1Pfpnk7gyGwGn0Dw5hoCLhIQAvD_BwE

Thanks for that, Ben! I had seen those but was concerned that the end which fits over the shutter release looks threaded (whereas there's no threading on my model's release base)...
I ended up purchasing a few (of various sizes) old AGC cloth-covered cables. The business end looks as though it will fit in the tapered righthand opening of my Rollei (D 7 from the manual posted by Dan above), and I'm reasoning that since they're neither geographically nor temporally too far removed from my Rollei's build they should hopefully be compatible... 'will be most keen to see if they do in fact work in practice. I'll report back around Midsummer once they've arrived (and after I've returned from holiday), and hopefully will as well be able to post some results of their use!

 

[David Polanski]

I have a Rolleiflex that is the slightly later version, an Automat K4B2 or K4B model 3 or whatever. It has a flash sync socket at subject's lower right (photographer's lower left), where David's Rolleiflex appears to have a cable release socket.

On mine, the cable release threads are around the outside of the shutter release button, and accept a Leica-or-Nikon style cable release or adapter as benjiboy has suggested. There may be a little trim ring around the base of the shutter release button, which covers the threads. However, if there's no way for that trim ring to come off, the cable release socket on subject's lower right appears to be the only option.

Thanks, reddesert.
I think it was in fact that the Model 3's socket is for the x-sync which had me confused about the socket on my Model 2. I'm quite happy though to now be better-informed and am happily confident that I will (ceteris paribus) actually be able to use a cable release with my model! 'was beginning to despair a little...
I'm curious though (and now somewhat OT): do you have a flash lamp for your Model 3 and, if so, what sort of results do you get with it?

 

[AgX]

Thanks for that, Dan.
My understanding had been that that hole is the X-sync contact (flash)...?

In 1944 electronic flash was not yet spread, let alone that there was X-synchronisation.

 

[Dan Daniel]

In 1944 electronic flash was not yet spread, let alone that there was X-synchronisation.

There is a very simple and primitive (and commonly used) form of flash sync that uses a pin connected to the flash socket and a piece of flat copper attached to a part of the shutter blade rack. As the shutter blades move, the copper is set to contact the pin, closing the circuit and firing the flash. Using an oscilloscope, the temporal relationship between the flash firing and the blades being fully opened can be determined. Bending the copper will change this relationship.

This is how you set X-sync on many shutters- blades open, circuit closed, all is right. It is the option to use bulbs, electronic, etc. that led to the incorporation of the escapement mechanism to close the circuit for bulbs while delaying the release of the shutter blades, while retaining electronic sync with the escapement disengaged.

 

[reddesert]

Thanks, reddesert.
I think it was in fact that the Model 3's socket is for the x-sync which had me confused about the socket on my Model 2. I'm quite happy though to now be better-informed and am happily confident that I will (ceteris paribus) actually be able to use a cable release with my model! 'was beginning to despair a little...
I'm curious though (and now somewhat OT): do you have a flash lamp for your Model 3 and, if so, what sort of results do you get with it?

I haven't used it with a flash in a long time, but I think it works ok with an electronic flash; it uses a standard PC cord. You can test it by looking through the camera from the back and firing the shutter with the flash pointing at/near the lens.

To my understanding, the earliest generation of shutters that were synchronized, such as the Compur Rapid on the early Rolleiflex automats, usually have no flash delay mech, so they are what we now call X-sync. If you wanted to use a flashbulb you were supposed to use a speed of ~ 1/30 or slower to allow the bulb time to reach its peak (or use an external synchronizer as found on some Speed Graphics).

Later shutters such as the Synchro-Compur added a synchronization delay mechanism and the "M" setting, so the flash is triggered about 20 msec before the shutter opens, which is great for M flashbulbs but doesn't work with electronic flash. Most of these have an M/X switch, but there are occasional cameras/shutters that don't have the X setting.

Today, unless you use flashbulbs, the M/X switch and delay is vestigial and a potential source of error. I have bought a lens described as having a "sticky shutter" that turned out to be only a sticky M delay mechanism (which of course slows the shutter opening); when set to X it works fine.

 

[JPD]

Yes, that's the cable release thread. I use it often on my pre-war Automat cameras.

 

[David Polanski]

Yes, that's the cable release thread. I use it often on my pre-war Automat cameras.

that's great, JPD—thanks!
what do you use for a cable?

 

[JPD]

that's great, JPD—thanks!
what do you use for a cable?

Either older AGC Prontor or newer Gebr. Schreck cable releases, but most should fit.

 

[ghwilliam1903]

Hi David,
Could you kindly tell me which cable you use in the end for your Rolleiflex Automat Model 2 k4B?
I have recently acquired a Rolleiflex Automat with the same model as yours and looking forward to taking pictures with it using a cable shutter release.
It would be of great help if you can provide me with the cable model number you use or where I could purchase a custom-made one.

 

[JPD]

Hi David,
Could you kindly tell me which cable you use in the end for your Rolleiflex Automat Model 2 k4B?
I have recently acquired a Rolleiflex Automat with the same model as yours and looking forward to taking pictures with it using a cable shutter release.
It would be of great help if you can provide me with the cable model number you use or where I could purchase a custom-made one.

Welcome to Photrio! It takes a normal cable release with conical thread, like: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395145891783 Some have a locking mechanism, some do not.

If you want a new one, directly from the factory, you could order from Gebr. Schreck in Germany: https://gebr-schreck.com/en/fotoausloeser/ They fit almost all vintage cameras.

I recommend a 50cm cable release, so you have some slack.

 

[ghwilliam1903]

Thank you very much for you help, JPD!!!

A standard cable for my other camera arrived today, and it worked perfectly with the Rolleiflex Automat Model 2 k4B.

However, as you recommanded, a cable of 50cm or longer is more handy when it comes to cable release.

Thank you once again for you advice!!