Rolleiflex 2.8F stuck after first frame, causing double exposure

[hiroh]

I shot quite a lot on my last trip with my Rolleiflex 2.8F, and on average, 6 out of 10 rolls got stuck after the first frame. I couldn't advance to the 2nd frame unless I shot again, which caused a double exposure. After that, the film would advance normally for the rest of the roll.

I load the camera as per the manual and have never had this problem before. I thread the film through the roller onto the film spool, advance it a bit, close the door, and then advance to the 1st frame until the handle won't turn anymore. That should be it, but something’s clearly wrong.

I haven’t used my Rolleiflex in quite some time, and this is the first time this issue has occurred, but it’s happening quite often. I thought maybe I had forgotten something, but after checking the manual, I see that I’m following the correct procedure.

Am I doing something wrong, or is there an issue with my camera?

 

[JPD]

Since it's the first frame I suspect that the counter mechanism doesn't engage properly every time. It could be due to old sticky lubricant or maybe a damaged cogwheel tooth. I would recommend that a repairman takes a look at it and gives the winding mechanism a CLA.

 

[BrianShaw]

Until you get it fixed, you can put a lenscap on the camera when making the second exposure to avoid ruining your shot.

You should double-check the double exposure mechanism to make sure its in the correct position and works as intended.

 

[hiroh]

That’s exactly what I want to avoid, given how long repairs can take. By the way, this camera was CLAd two years ago and is in perfect condition, inside and out. But who knows...

 

[BrianShaw]

This is a very vague recollection but I seem to recall discussion, a long, long time ago, where someone commented that the automatic sensing device adjustment could be sensitive to some film stocks. I think it was those with thinner backing paper that may not always register correctly. Not sure if that has anything to do with your symptoms but I mention it nonetheless.

 

[hiroh]

Until you get it fixed, you can put a lenscap on the camera when making the second exposure to avoid ruining your shot.

You should double-check the double exposure mechanism to make sure its in the correct position and works as intended.

View attachment 377107

As I understand it, the double-exposure mechanism needs to be engaged for each shot. So, my only guess is that I might be accidentally activating it while loading the film.

 

[hiroh]

This is a very vague recollection but I seem to recall discussion, a long, long time ago, where someone commented that the automatic sensing device adjustment could be sensitive to some film stocks. I think it was those with thinner backing paper that may not always register correctly. Not sure if that has anything to do with your symptoms but I mention it nonetheless.

I doubt it. I’ve always used pretty much the same films: Tri-X, T-Max, HP5, and FP4.

 

[BrianShaw]

Hope you get it figured out soon. That's a really nice camera. I've lusted after one for years...

 

[Steven Lee]

@hiroh I have three Rolleiflexes: 2.8F (serviced by Fleenor), 3.5F (serviced by Kanto Kamera) and 4.0 FW (too new to require a CLA). They are all susceptible to this behavior unless you load them with a bit of rigor:

1. When the film is loaded and the back is closed, you advance until the crank stops.
2. Rewind the crank back until it stops again. This unlocks the double exposure prevention lock.

This 2nd step is critical. You need to do this with authority. I used to gently turn the crank backward and kept bumping into the same issue.

 

[JPD]

That’s exactly what I want to avoid, given how long repairs can take. By the way, this camera was CLAd two years ago and is in perfect condition, inside and out. But who knows...

Yes, it's a good idea to ask on forums first in case there is something you can do yourself. A recent CLA is sadly not a guarantee that the camera will work perfectly for many years, but if the repair service made a mistake it's usually revealed within the first couple of rolls. Mistakes that lead to excessive wear on a part can take many rolls before it causes problems, and then the part needs to be replaced. Springs can get unhooked, an unseen tiny piece of dirt can cause future trouble, wrong type of lubricant might have been used by mistake, an overtightened screw, and so on.

My 2,8F was CLAd, the shutter stopped working during my first test roll, so it was sent back to Rollei-Service. Later the DOF indicator broke, so it was sent back again. A spring had unhooked.

 

[JPD]

@hiroh I have three Rolleiflexes: 2.8F (serviced by Fleenor), 3.5F (serviced by Kanto Kamera) and 4.0 FW (too new to require a CLA). They are all susceptible to this behavior unless you load them with a bit of rigor:

1. When the film is loaded and the back is closed, you advance until the crank stops.
2. Rewind the crank back until it stops again. This unlocks the double exposure prevention lock.

This 2nd step is critical. You need to do this with authority. I used to gently turn the crank backward and kept bumping into the same issue.

Yes, this should always be done. Wind forward until it stops and than back until it stops. It also says so in the manual, that hiroh has read.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I shot quite a lot on my last trip with my Rolleiflex 2.8F, and on average, 6 out of 10 rolls got stuck after the first frame. I couldn't advance to the 2nd frame unless I shot again, which caused a double exposure. After that, the film would advance normally for the rest of the roll.

I am not certain what you are describing here. When you say that you need to shot again after the first shot in order to advance and you get a double exposure, do you

- wind the crank forward with no counter movement, no film movement, rewind crank and fire shutter and now you get counter movement?
- the wind lever will not move after firing the shutter and you need to press the shutter again in order to be able to move the lever (which begs the question, how are you getting a double exposure when the shutter has not been cocked?).

Not understanding how you are getting a double exposure on the film. Maybe you mean that you need to 'fire' the shutter gain, but the film does not show a double exposure??

If the wind lever will not move after firing the shutter, what happens if you press the shutter release down again, to the limit of its downward travel? There are two mechanical systems at work when you press the shutter release button. One releases the shutter (duh). The other releases the wind system. Ideally these are in agreement and both happen at the same time. Realistically they are often not in sync but not noticed because they could be very slightly off and the general slop of pressing the shutter handles both systems. But then related to Steven Lee's comment, maybe something happens with the first frame that makes it more prone to do this.

 

[hiroh]

@hiroh I have three Rolleiflexes: 2.8F (serviced by Fleenor), 3.5F (serviced by Kanto Kamera) and 4.0 FW (too new to require a CLA). They are all susceptible to this behavior unless you load them with a bit of rigor:

1. When the film is loaded and the back is closed, you advance until the crank stops.
2. Rewind the crank back until it stops again. This unlocks the double exposure prevention lock.

This 2nd step is critical. You need to do this with authority. I used to gently turn the crank backward and kept bumping into the same issue.

If I understand you correctly, I’m already doing that. After advancing to the first frame, I crank back to put handle in its place, but it moves smoothly without needing any pressure.

Yes, it's a good idea to ask on forums first in case there is something you can do yourself. A recent CLA is sadly not a guarantee that the camera will work perfectly for many years, but if the repair service made a mistake it's usually revealed within the first couple of rolls. Mistakes that lead to excessive wear on a part can take many rolls before it causes problems, and then the part needs to be replaced. Springs can get unhooked, an unseen tiny piece of dirt can cause future trouble, wrong type of lubricant might have been used by mistake, an overtightened screw, and so on.

My 2,8F was CLAd, the shutter stopped working during my first test roll, so it was sent back to Rollei-Service. Later the DOF indicator broke, so it was sent back again. A spring had unhooked.

There could be something wrong with the camera, but I’d like to believe it’s just me making a mistake in how I’m operating it. If I don’t find a solution, I might just use this as a camera feature to practice some double exposures. This could be a good opportunity

I am not certain what you are describing here. When you say that you need to shot again after the first shot in order to advance and you get a double exposure, do you

- wind the crank forward with no counter movement, no film movement, rewind crank and fire shutter and now you get counter movement?
- the wind lever will not move after firing the shutter and you need to press the shutter again in order to be able to move the lever (which begs the question, how are you getting a double exposure when the shutter has not been cocked?).

Not understanding how you are getting a double exposure on the film. Maybe you mean that you need to 'fire' the shutter gain, but the film does not show a double exposure??

If the wind lever will not move after firing the shutter, what happens if you press the shutter release down again, to the limit of its downward travel? There are two mechanical systems at work when you press the shutter release button. One releases the shutter (duh). The other releases the wind system. Ideally these are in agreement and both happen at the same time. Realistically they are often not in sync but not noticed because they could be very slightly off and the general slop of pressing the shutter handles both systems. But then related to Steven Lee's comment, maybe something happens with the first frame that makes it more prone to do this.

Dan, I shot the first frame, but when I tried to advance to the second, the handle wouldn’t move. I fiddled around, trying anything to get to the second frame, and the only way I could do it was by cranking back, pressing the shutter, and then advancing to the second frame. That's how I ended up with a double exposure on the first frame. After that, every frame would advance normally until the end of the roll, and every second roll would have the same issue on the first frame.

 

[Dan Daniel]

So if you covered the lens with something light tight for the second expsure on the first frame, all would be well? A lens cap with a hand and shirt away from the sun should take care of that.

I would pay attention to what Steven Lee said about being 'definitive' in winding back after loading. And then if it happens, try what I am getting at- press the shutter release down hard to see if that release the wind system (before any backwards winding or such)(the shutter is cocked by winding the lever about 180 degrees, forward or backward, so pressing the shutter button before any winding is safe- the shutter is not going to fire). And if all else fails, cover the lens (heck, stop down to f/22 just because) and fire the shutter and get on with the rest of the roll.

Something is off, of course. Service would be good, but if you want to avoid that, see what these steps do?

 

[hiroh]

So if you covered the lens with something light tight for the second expsure on the first frame, all would be well? A lens cap with a hand and shirt away from the sun should take care of that.

I would pay attention to what Steven Lee said about being 'definitive' in winding back after loading. And then if it happens, try what I am getting at- press the shutter release down hard to see if that release the wind system (before any backwards winding or such)(the shutter is cocked by winding the lever about 180 degrees, forward or backward, so pressing the shutter button before any winding is safe- the shutter is not going to fire). And if all else fails, cover the lens (heck, stop down to f/22 just because) and fire the shutter and get on with the rest of the roll.

Something is off, of course. Service would be good, but if you want to avoid that, see what these steps do?

Yes, covering the lens would definitely work. I’ll try both your and Steven's suggestions, but as I recall, I couldn't press the shutter after firing the first shot. In fact, I can press it all the way down, but nothing happens.

 

[Saganich]

With my first Rolleiflex I experienced this. After loading I wound back only to the point of placing the handle back into the hole. This often was sufficient to cock the shutter for awhile, but then one day it wasn't and the aforementioned problem would occur. Now I make a point to wind back with intention and make sure I can feel the shutter cock.

 

[hiroh]

With my first Rolleiflex I experienced this. After loading I wound back only to the point of placing the handle back into the hole. This often was sufficient to cock the shutter for awhile, but then one day it wasn't and the aforementioned problem would occur. Now I make a point to wind back with intention and make sure I can feel the shutter cock.

Noted. Will definitely try that on my next shoot.

 

[OAPOli]

Btw you can practice with a dummy roll of backing paper, just stick a piece of masking tape where you would expect it.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Btw you can practice with a dummy roll of backing paper, just stick a piece of masking tape where you would expect it.

Heck, you can put a spool in the top chamber and slide an index card between the two rollers. The Automat sensor will trip on closing the back and winding will move immediately to 1.

 

[radialMelt]

Had this issue on my 3.5F as well. Unfortunately I never did learn what the source of the problem was. Jimmy Koh in NY was able to fix it for me, relatively quick and cheaply I might add.

 

[Alex Varas]

Heck, you can put a spool in the top chamber and slide an index card between the two rollers. The Automat sensor will trip on closing the back and winding will move immediately to 1.

I would try this if you don’t have a exposed roll used for loadings and such.

 

[dpurdy]

When I first started using Rolleis I would sometimes hit the double exposure switch accidentally when loading a new roll of film. Then irritatingly it would not advance after the first exposure. Make sure you are not the culprit.