Rolleiflex 2.8c Question

[jchabalk]

Hi there, I just received a 2.8c and I have a couple of questions about it. This is my first TLR but i've been shooting other medium format systems for a while now, and i'm pretty comfortable around old manual cameras.

In general this camera is in ok shape. It's been well used, and i'm not sure if it's been well taken care of:

• All of the controls appear to work - but all are sluggish.
• The shutter speeds appear to be pretty close and are generally repeatable - but the shutter adjustment is sluggish.
• The shutter release works fine but is really slow to return to its home position
• All of these things are likely due to dried up lubricants and are likely fixable via CLA.
• Focus appears sharp on the ground-glass. I put a couple of rolls through it today so i'll know more in a couple of days when i get the negs back.

The things i'm concerned with are:

• The lens hood looks like it got whacked real good at some point and the bayonet mount is deformed due to the hit. I removed the hood but really it should either stay off or on as removing it requires a lot of force. (You can sort of see it at 7:00 in the pictures below)
• I'm a little concerned about proper focus due to this but on the ground glass it looks ok.
• The taking lens has a pattern around the edge that i think is the cement starting to fall apart but i'm not sure. Otherwise both lenses are clear and scratch free.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a fundamental problem with the lens or if it's totally normal and (likely) stable. I can still return the camera. If the lens is in good shape i'm going to keep it and get a CLA in the near future.

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[rrusso]

Could be balsam separation, hard to tell from the photos.

Funny you should post this, just today I returned a 2.8C with terrible taking lens issues. Fungus, haze, balsam separation...and it looked like someone had used a fine grade of steel wool to clean it.

Personally, I'd return it...did you get a good deal? If so, and the negs turn out ok (mine were unusable), it might be something you can live with...

 

[onre]

To me that looks like the black paint flaking off from the sides of the element. Does not really affect image quality in any way.

 

[jchabalk]

cool, thanks. my inclination has been to return it. I've been having a bunch of problems finding a solid rollei. I've seen a bunch with lens issues like you had with yours. The glass on this one is clean and clear - except for this issue around the edge.

After i changed the film the second time there was a bunch of weird debris near the spent film spool too. I'm guessing it's oxidation that was shaken loose when i used it, it seems to have come from inside. There's no doubt this thing needs a good cleaning inside and out - i'm a little worried about what might turn up during that work. Seems like it might have been kept somewhere without good airflow. There's oxidation on a lot of the external metal surfaces.

 

[Brett Rogers]

Hi there, I just received a 2.8c and I have a couple of questions about it. This is my first TLR but i've been shooting other medium format systems for a while now, and i'm pretty comfortable around old manual cameras.

In general this camera is in ok shape. It's been well used, and i'm not sure if it's been well taken care of:

• All of the controls appear to work - but all are sluggish.
• The shutter speeds appear to be pretty close and are generally repeatable - but the shutter adjustment is sluggish.
• The shutter release works fine but is really slow to return to its home position
• All of these things are likely due to dried up lubricants and are likely fixable via CLA.
• Focus appears sharp on the ground-glass. I put a couple of rolls through it today so i'll know more in a couple of days when i get the negs back.

The things i'm concerned with are:

• The lens hood looks like it got whacked real good at some point and the bayonet mount is deformed due to the hit. I removed the hood but really it should either stay off or on as removing it requires a lot of force. (You can sort of see it at 7:00 in the pictures below)
• I'm a little concerned about proper focus due to this but on the ground glass it looks ok.
• The taking lens has a pattern around the edge that i think is the cement starting to fall apart but i'm not sure. Otherwise both lenses are clear and scratch free.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a fundamental problem with the lens or if it's totally normal and (likely) stable. I can still return the camera. If the lens is in good shape i'm going to keep it and get a CLA in the near future.

• View attachment 163419 View attachment 163420

Firstly, congratulations for spelling "Rolleiflex" correctly. Puts you in the top 50% or so of members on this site.

Separation problems are not much of an issue with the 80mm Xenotar. Unlike the 80mm Planar used on the TLRs the front piece is a single glass, it's not cemented. No cement to separate. Other groups are, but these don't usually give problems. Which doesn't mean it's impossible. But it's rare. It's generally the Zeiss lenses (you know, those ones people often pay a bit more for) which have separation faults, because when Zeiss began using synthetic cement instead of Canada Balsam in the 1950s the long term stability of their adhesive wasn't quite there. In fairness, it took decades in some cases for this to become problematic.

I'd be less concerned with the lens condition than the impact damage. It's very likely to have affected the parallelism of the lens board to the film rails. The fibre cam followers may well have been damaged, or the struts and rails compromised possibly. At a minimum the camera would have to be collimated or set on a surface plate and the alignment assessed with blocks and dial gauge. I'm doing precisely this with a Cord Va at present, (dial gauge and plate) and successfully corrected this fault with other Rolleis, previously, so I actually speak from experience.

Where to go really depends on you. Can you source a replacement front housing for it? One sold quite recently on eBay, so sadly, your timing's a little off. But will you be happy with a good user, or would you really like a tidier specimen? You can have the alignment of this one corrected, and the mechanism cleaned (which it clearly needs) but, without replacement parts it will always be a bit rough. If you paid bugger all for it, then, it may be worth investing in some repairs. On the other hand, if it was not particularly cheap, I suggest you'd be over investing by getting it worked on, and you're most likely better off returning it, if you are able to, and procuring a better example. That may or may not be perfect, either, but, it is always a better move to invest any $$ in a presentable, intact, example, than one that is used and abused. When all is said and done, there are better starting points out there than this one, unless it was exceptionally cheap.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[summicron1]

what they said about the edge of the lens -- that the blacking, it is put there to reduce internal reflections off the edge of the lens element, it flakes off on older lenses and, on the ones I own, doesn't seem to do any harm.

Check the parallelism of the lens standard by watching closely as you focus out -- the lens area that moves away from the body of the camera should stay parallel.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry too much -- sounds as if the camera took a whack while the lens shade was on it and the shade took the force -- these cameras are well-built.

It really depends on what you paid -- if you got a screaming deal -- $250 or less -- then have it serviced and be happy. If you paid full price -- $500-up -- send it back or demand partial refund. A complete service will be at least $200, more if it includes the wind mechanism.

And the lens shade won't affect focus at all. It's there to reduce flare, which is nice to reduce, but in most shooting situations it isn't a problem you can't solve by holding your hat off to the side so it keeps light from hitting the lens at a sharp side-angle.

 

[Brett Rogers]

what they said about the edge of the lens -- that the blacking, it is put there to reduce internal reflections off the edge of the lens element, it flakes off on older lenses and, on the ones I own, doesn't seem to do any harm.

Check the parallelism of the lens standard by watching closely as you focus out -- the lens area that moves away from the body of the camera should stay parallel.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry too much -- sounds as if the camera took a whack while the lens shade was on it and the shade took the force -- these cameras are well-built.

It really depends on what you paid -- if you got a screaming deal -- $250 or less -- then have it serviced and be happy. If you paid full price -- $500-up -- send it back or demand partial refund. A complete service will be at least $200, more if it includes the wind mechanism.

And the lens shade won't affect focus at all. It's there to reduce flare, which is nice to reduce, but in most shooting situations it isn't a problem you can't solve by holding your hat off to the side so it keeps light from hitting the lens at a sharp side-angle.

The lens hood fits the bayonet on the front cover. The front cover screws onto the lens board, and the lens board mount onto the focus struts. So impact onto a hood is going to be transferred to these parts to a certain extent. The fibre followers are probably the weakest part, they're designed to gradually and slowly wear instead of wearing the cams or struts, so they are almost a "fuse" in the system, minor impacts may collapse these, more force can do more damage to more parts. I agree the lens should indeed move smoothly, and evenly, and it's obviously good if this is the case, but the only way to determine what sort of affect the damage has had on the parallelism is by precision measurement. I am hypothesising, here, but in some ways, because a hood protrudes further out from the front of the camera Eg dropping one straight onto its front with a hood fitted might have the potential to make matters worse, not better, because the Rollei hoods are robust metal ones and shaped to aid strength. If it was more of a glancing impact to the side, a hood might be more of a help than hindrance, so, perhaps, maybe it depends on precisely what type of bad luck one has? I have no plans to conduct before/after experimentation with my own C model...

These cameras are very well built, I couldn't agree more on this point. But well built, and an ability to handle impact damage without damage are not necessarily the same thing. They can last an exceptionally long time when well cared for, but they don't tolerate impact damage as well as other types of cameras for the reasons I've mentioned previously. Durability, and ability to resist abuse, are related to an extent, obviously. But are not mutually assured in every case, and, in this case, the problem is that banging a Rollei on its front will not do it any good at all. Damage from an impact affecting image quality is by no means a certainty, but, it is not unlikely, either.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Dan Daniel]

The white dots on the edge of the lens has a name- Schneideritis. And a later variation called Fujiitis. Something to do with the paint used by Schneider (and Fuji) to blacken the lens elements, especially in the '50s and into the '60s for Schneider. The general consensus in the large format world where this is a common thing on older lenses is that it doesn't have any effect except on resale price. You can do a search on it to find discussions.

Brett pretty well laid out the issues on the bayonet, lens shroud and lens board. I will add that behind this bayonet are two thin gears circling the lens. The shutter speed and aperture dials engage these gears, which in turn transfer the motion to similar gears around the viewing lens. Most likely the stiffness you are feeling is because the lens shroud is bent and is binding these mechanisms. Same for the shutter release- things are out of alignment.

I would contact Harry Fleenor and see if he has a replacement shroud. If he does, you are looking at probably $350 and above to get it installed and the focus gone over? Just to give you an idea as you decide to return the camera or not.

 

[Dan Daniel]

By the way, if you decide to return it, drop me a note about getting a Rolleiflex. I can put you in contact with someone looking to sell his E series Planar in very good shape all around. Private party.

 

[jchabalk]

thanks for the great feedback. I'm going to return this camera. When i started buying my Hasselblad outfit about 18 years ago i first got an old 500c with a 12 back (with the peep hole) and the old style wlf. It had had a tough life and offered no shortage of problems during the time i had it. I spent too much time and money trying to get it repaired and working correctly and wasn't able to shoot pictures with it much.

The 80mm(c) lens I got was great though, I sold the body and back and kept the great lens. I'm going to keep looking for a good, perfectly functional and reliable Rollei. I pm'd you dan regarding the person you know who's selling, thanks for the offer.

With my Hasselblad, I traded that camera and back to Calumet for a pretty good price and eventually bought a 500c/m. It was in good shape but skipped frames. After 2 trips for repair, and an apparently hard to find problem, i've been using it reliably for ~15 years.

 

[jchabalk]

I thought it'd be interesting to follow-up on this thread 4+ years in the future. I ended up talking to the seller about the condition of the camera, a realistic idea of what it would cost to get back in working order, and what i had paid them for it initially based on the stated condition. Basically i made them an offer and they accepted it (i was surprised about this) - i have a feeling i wasn't the first person to return it and they didn't want to deal with it anymore. I figured i'd just bought a desk ornament and didn't think much else about it. Fast forward ~4 years.

I got the camera fully serviced around September 2020 and i just got it back, it's much perfect - as far as i can tell. I just put a couple of rolls through it this weekend. It's tack sharp and everything's working perfectly. The only thing we weren't able to address is the damaged bayonet mount on the taking lens. I ordered a couple of filters and i'm going to see if i can make it serviceable. This xenotar lens has a great look to it, i'm really happy i stuck it out with this thing.*

*looked at it occasionally, finally got the itch to get it repaired rather than buy another one, found a well reviewed local person with a <4 month turn around time and paid for it