Rollei Retro 80s PROBLEM - Black spots on print

budameat · May 27, 2017

Hi

I am out of ideas and would need some help.

I have black spots on the print/scan from Rollei 80s on 120.
The spots are all over the image, tiny and on the whole roll thru.

I am using Xtol 1+1 dilution, no presoak, fix, water rinse and photoflo.

I tried:
- filtering Xtol thru a filter
- used water or citrus stop bath
- used old and mixed new fixer in new bottle with distilled water
- used it on different MF cameras with different lenses

No change.

Any help?

removedacct3 · May 27, 2017

emulsion lift off? I would consider a different developer. Have you contacted Rollei, or Maco Direct, about this?

budameat · May 27, 2017

MrclSchprs said:
emulsion lift off? I would consider a different developer. Have you contacted Rollei, or Maco Direct, about this?

Emulsion lift off? What is that?

No, I haven't contacted Maco Direct, yet. I wanted to ask the communtiy first.

I read a couple of things on different forums about it. Something about ionisation and iron in the water and that the Rollei Retro emulsions are sensitive to it. Maybe something about this?

I have a plan now, I will ask a friend, an avid film shooter himself, to shoot a roll from my stash and develop it by himself with his own chemicals. At least this way I will be able to determine if the problem lies with the local water supply or the film stock.

destroya · May 27, 2017

i had the same issue with 120 RR80s. dont bother to contact maco, they wont reply or they will blame it on you. many people have had this issues and t seems to only happen to the 120 film. Ive had no issues on 35mm. whats your exp date on the film? search google and you will find others talking of this same issue. my lab guy who i showed the film to things its an emulsion issue. I had no idea, hence me asking him. it also happened when i developed the film as slides.

sad as its a great landscape film. so No more or rollei films in 120 for me.

budameat · May 27, 2017

destroya said:
i had the same issue with 120 RR80s. dont bother to contact maco, they wont reply or they will blame it on you. many people have had this issues and t seems to only happen to the 120 film. Ive had no issues on 35mm. whats your exp date on the film? search google and you will find others talking of this same issue. my lab guy who i showed the film to things its an emulsion issue. I had no idea, hence me asking him. it also happened when i developed the film as slides.

sad as its a great landscape film. so No more or rollei films in 120 for me.

That would be a great shame.

The dates are fine. I bought them from Fotoimpex this week.

On a local Facebook film group we discussed that I could try a 2-3 minute presoak to get rid of the anti halation layer OR try a high temperature development (25-30°C).

Any opinions on that?

destroya · May 27, 2017

i asked about the dates so i could compare your film to mine and hopefully others, to see if its a batch issue or if its an ongoing problem. the problem for me started when they switched from the cigar tubes to the cardboard boxes. i still have many rolls in the cigar tubes that work fine. every roll from the new box style has been bad

sepiareverb · May 27, 2017

You might try some Edward LFN in the developer. I use two drops in a 500ml working solution and three in 1L. These don't look exactly like the air bells I've experienced, but I've not had them on 120 film.

I had lots of air bells on the maco made (?) ADOX ortho film in 35mm. I added the LFN and never had them again.

budameat · May 27, 2017

destroya said:
i asked about the dates so i could compare your film to mine and hopefully others, to see if its a batch issue or if its an ongoing problem. the problem for me started when they switched from the cigar tubes to the cardboard boxes. i still have many rolls in the cigar tubes that work fine. every roll from the new box style has been bad

No problem. The expiration date is 3/2020 while the Art.No. is RR1801X

budameat · May 27, 2017

sepiareverb said:
You might try some Edward LFN in the developer. I use two drops in a 500ml working solution and three in 1L. These don't look exactly like the air bells I've experienced, but I've not had them on 120 film.

I had lots of air bells on the maco made (?) ADOX ortho film in 35mm. I added the LFN and never had them again.

Wetting agent in the development? Worth a try. Will get back to you on that.

Anon Ymous · May 27, 2017

IMHO, the fact that the 135 version doesn't have such issues (from my experience too), makes me think that it's not the emulsion itself the problem. The same film material is used for both versions (120 and 135). Perhaps it is some kind of contamination or dust stuck on the surface of the film that blocks the light during exposure.

It might be worth it to cut a small piece of film before processing and have a look for anything unusual.

budameat · May 27, 2017

Anon Ymous said:
IMHO, the fact that the 135 version doesn't have such issues (from my experience too), makes me think that it's not the emulsion itself the problem. The same film material is used for both versions (120 and 135). Perhaps it is some kind of contamination or dust stuck on the surface of the film that blocks the light during exposure.

I thought of that, but I find it unlikely, since this is the second batch of Retro80s that I am using. They would really have to screw up the process for this to have happened.

I thought of the MamiyaRB67 lenses I use and there is some dust in it, but not nearly enough to have caused this. The same happened on a test I did with a TLR, a Flexaret VIa - same results. Other films, Foma and Ilford, come out perfect.

I think, if I narrow it down, it is either the film emulsion disagrees with my chemistry/water supply OR the batch of film I buy is somehow corrupted

piu58 · May 29, 2017

RR80s is an aerial film. It is quite save to assume that the film gives a decent quality for it's intended use. I had issues with that film too, but only with 120 film. So we may assume that there is some reaction with the backing paper. Agfa Avi Pan 80 is not thought to use with paper/prining ink in contact.

mpirie · May 29, 2017

Could they have changed the backing paper manufacturers lately?

Kodak Alaris had similar issues lately where the image had an imprint of the backing paper printing.

Mike

budameat · May 29, 2017

piu58 said:
RR80s is an aerial film. It is quite save to assume that the film gives a decent quality for it's intended use. I had issues with that film too, but only with 120 film. So we may assume that there is some reaction with the backing paper. Agfa Avi Pan 80 is not thought to use with paper/prining ink in contact.

I have to agree and I also have to amend my previus post.

I didn't realise but I still used my previous batch with the expiration date 2018 and NOT with the 2020. I just developed a new roll with the 2020 date and its fine. I did use a prewash but i doubt i made any difference. The new batch has a new backing paper. Its white instead of black with a green leader.

The new rolls also dry flatter and now they are just fine. Sharp, contrasty. I shot them on my Flexaret VIa, used different filters and closup lenses, I developed this roll at 50 ISO in Xtol for 7'30 min at 24°C with the above mentioned technique.

I still have a couple of rolls from the old batch and will do a prewash test on em and aslo will still go thru with the 'another user+chemicals' test.

Will get back to you on that.

For now things are looking preety ok for me

Thanks for the help guys

destroya · May 29, 2017

well, thats good to hear. Im hoping the rest of your 2020 rolls come out perfect.

trendland · May 29, 2017

piu58 said:
RR80s is an aerial film. It is quite save to assume that the film gives a decent quality for it's intended use. I had issues with that film too, but only with 120 film. So we may assume that there is some reaction with the backing paper. Agfa Avi Pan 80 is not thought to use with paper/prining ink in contact.

Nice to come to this point - and thank you for that - piu 58.

It is an aereal emulsion from agfa (Agfa
Aviphot pan 80.)

When it was in use the standard was at highest level.
Air Reconnaisance with Types Rf-4 Phantom and EADS Tornado ECR in western Europe will
not be served with loosy emulsions.
Rollei stated to different times : This film
is still in produktion by Agfa Belgium in
Mortsel ?
AND what is "in production " ?
Assembling and packaging from masterrols produced in ..........????
That seams to be the reason to product
quality fluctuations.
By the time : Military Air Reconnaisance was indeed to a long time still with film.
Since 2009 film is obsolate due to
"RecceLite" pods that means there is no demand in higher quantitys on aereal films since 2008-2009.

with regards

budameat · May 29, 2017

destroya said:
well, thats good to hear. Im hoping the rest of your 2020 rolls come out perfect.

Yeah, me too. I have a project coming up and this must work!

MattKing · May 29, 2017

Aerial film isn't/wasn't designed to be used with backing paper and in contact with ink.
There is no guarantee that even the highest quality film will behave well when it is re-purposed for other uses.
Cinestill comes to mind as an example

trendland · May 30, 2017

MattKing said:
Aerial film isn't/wasn't designed to be used with backing paper and in contact with ink.
There is no guarantee that even the highest quality film will behave well when it is re-purposed for other uses.
Cinestill comes to mind as an example

Yes - Matt ? Nice try of you to refer the special problem of budameat to some
problems we've hust seen in concerns
to backing paper .
I Do Not believe that this is the reason.
But if you alowe me to bring a better theory : Look at this here

We have it to do with original Agfa Films.
Aviophot in different types - also in color.
Yes you are right Matt - without backing paper!
Let us just see the size of theese rolls?

trendland · May 30, 2017

Here we have it ......
And what is your sugestion? How many rolls 135-36 film can we get from just one original canister ?

Or - let me ask, how many 120 film rolls can we get from 150 of this original
Aereal Films to asemble theese rolls

trendland · May 30, 2017

sorry for smartphone problem!

........

from original confected Aereal Canisters
wich we're off demand?

And is this the production wich is meant
from Rollei : Produced in Belgium ?

with regards

PS : Some Films are just nice and with
fine properties - others still have quality problems. WHY ???????

removedacct1 · May 30, 2017

I've had similar problems with other Rollei 120 format films, and I blamed the emulsion itself. However, I recently encountered a document that stated these Rollei films MUST HAVE a full five minute water presoak. I tried it myself and sure enough, a roll from a batch I had dismissed as "bad" was perfectly good - none of the tiny black dots. I recommend you do a thorough water presoak of five minutes before going into the developer, and see how that works.

AgX · May 30, 2017

Agfa do NOT advise a water presoak.

Rollei Retro 80s PROBLEM - Black spots on print

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