Rollei 400 IR with Hoya 72 vs Fuji XT1

young_ghiaccio · Jun 10, 2018

Hi all

Been doing a lot of research here but didn't see this before.

I plan on shooting IR with my Mamiya 7 but don't want to mess it up, I decided to do some test metering and exposures using a digital camera and get vastly different results.

From what I've read on this forum, I want to meter at ISO 12 and use that reading for creating my film photograph. When I use my external meter and get a reading, I apply those settings to my digital camera with the filter attached and get a black exposure.

Reading at ISO 12:
T 1/30, F f/8

Using the digital cam with h72 i get all black but
If I try 25 seconds at f/8 I get a great image

Im not sure how to proceed with the film now, any ideas?

mpirie · Jun 10, 2018

I think it's unrealistic to assume that your digital camera sensor will have the same IR response as film.

Set your meter to ISO 12 (personally, i use EI 6), stick the R72 on the lens, load some film and go have some fun.

You will mess-up.....it's the nature of IR photography.....just make sure you learn from it and pay attention to the subject lighting, sun direction etc.

Mike

mooseontheloose · Jun 10, 2018

Don't make it too difficult for yourself! Load your film, use your external meter (set for 12 iso) and bracket. If it's your first roll, use that as a test. Find a scene you like, shoot your first frame without a filter, and then the next 4 with the filter on - metered at 12, plus one stop under, one stop over,and two stops over. Then find another scene, with the same or different lighting conditions, and do the same again. Develop with your regular developer, evaluate the negs, find the ones you like the best (not everyone goes for the same infrared look - you may prefer it more intense, or less so) and use that for your base exposure the next time you go out. If you find that you like the ones that are a stop overexposed, then shoot the entire roll at iso 6 next time. Although we can't meter infrared exactly, I have never had a problem just trusting the meter with whatever film I'm using and my preferred film speed for it (Kodak HIE, Rollei IR, Efke IR, Konica IR, Ilford SFX, etc. - I've shot them all).

Sirius Glass · Jun 11, 2018

Shoot brightly lit foliage with the sun directly on it and behind you. You will be wasting your time shooting either towards the sun for backlit scenes or from the side.

mooseontheloose · Jun 11, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Shoot brightly lit foliage with the sun directly on it and behind you. You will be wasting your time shooting either towards the sun for backlit scenes or from the side.

+1 Although I would say you don't always have to shoot in brightly lit conditions. Some of my best photos are from when it was slightly overcast - I've even seen successful shots from foggy days. I've even shot infrared at night to prove that it could be done (the sun is not the only source of infrared light). The only way to know is to shoot in different kinds of light, and with different kinds of subjects (trees with white leaves bore me, but give me calm water or aged wood in infrared and I am a very happy girl!) Again, it all depends on what you are looking for in your photographs.

Pieter12 · Jun 11, 2018

As far as the original post goes, I don't think you can set your Fuji digital camera to ISO 12, so that would be why you cannot get the right exposure from your meter reading with the meter set at ISO 12.

Paul Manuell · Jun 11, 2018

Can I just clarify something here for myself, because I'm going to be doing some shoots this summer with SFX200 and an IR720 filter: when people talk about setting the ISO to 12, presumably that's to get metered readings at that ISO speed WITHOUT the filter on, so that when the filter is then attached its light stopping factor is already taken into account, ie., 400 ISO film overexposed by, in the case of the OP, 5 stops to account for the filter's light cutting effect by that amount. Is that right or have I totally misunderstood it?

MattKing · Jun 11, 2018

Paul Manuell said:
Can I just clarify something here for myself, because I'm going to be doing some shoots this summer with SFX200 and an IR720 filter: when people talk about setting the ISO to 12, presumably that's to get metered readings at that ISO speed WITHOUT the filter on, so that when the filter is then attached its light stopping factor is already taken into account, ie., 400 ISO film overexposed by, in the case of the OP, 5 stops to account for the filter's light cutting effect by that amount. Is that right or have I totally misunderstood it?

Correct.
Except for many of us, we are using a separate hand meter to measure that light.
The most important thing to understand though is that your meter isn't capable of metering the IR and near IR light that you are trying to record,. For IR work, you are measuring the visible light, and applying your judgment and experience with respect to how and under what circumstances the levels of visible light and IR light correlate.
Educated guessing is always important with IR.

Sirius Glass · Jun 12, 2018

Pieter12 said:
As far as the original post goes, I don't think you can set your Fuji digital camera to ISO 12, so that would be why you cannot get the right exposure from your meter reading with the meter set at ISO 12.

Digital cameras have built in IR filters so unless you dismantle the camera and remove the built in filter you will not get IR on a digital camera. On the other hand a digital camera without an IR filter can get some outstanding images.

Paul Manuell · Jun 12, 2018

MattKing said:
Correct.
Except for many of us, we are using a separate hand meter to measure that light.
The most important thing to understand though is that your meter isn't capable of metering the IR and near IR light that you are trying to record,. For IR work, you are measuring the visible light, and applying your judgment and experience with respect to how and under what circumstances the levels of visible light and IR light correlate.
Educated guessing is always important with IR.

Thank you.

Paul Manuell · Jul 8, 2018

young_ghiaccio said:
Hi all

Been doing a lot of research here but didn't see this before.

I plan on shooting IR with my Mamiya 7 but don't want to mess it up, I decided to do some test metering and exposures using a digital camera and get vastly different results.

From what I've read on this forum, I want to meter at ISO 12 and use that reading for creating my film photograph. When I use my external meter and get a reading, I apply those settings to my digital camera with the filter attached and get a black exposure.

Reading at ISO 12:
T 1/30, F f/8

Using the digital cam with h72 i get all black but
If I try 25 seconds at f/8 I get a great image

Im not sure how to proceed with the film now, any ideas?

Ok, probably a bit late, but having recently used and had developed my first ever roll of SFX200 (I know, not a true infrared film, but hopefully the same working principal as the Rollei) and being chuffed to bits with the results, here's how I worked with it.

Having read a very useful post on another thread (titled Rollei IR400S - it's not HIE, but WOW) about Rollei IR400, where the poster helpfully provided photo examples, I basically framed and focussed my shot on a tripod without the IR720 filter attached, set my aperture to f11 (to get decent sharpness without having to worry about focussing specifically for infrared), noted the shutter speed given then simply added 4 stops of overexposure once the filter was attached. For virtually every shot I was getting a non filtered reading of 1/250th at f11 without the filter - it was a very sunny few days -, so set the shutter speed to 1/15th. I took most of my shots at this setting, but for a couple where I really wanted them to be 'keepers' I also exposed them at 5 and 6 stops over, so 1/8th and 1/4 respectively. The 4 stops over gave the best results in those particular photos too. The iso was set at box speed by the way, so iso 200 in my case.

As the view through the viewfinder was non existent with the filter attached - so, basically black - I had no confidence that anything at all would come out, but was blown away when I actually got the photos back. They were never going to be as good as true infrared, but what I did get put a huge smile on my face.

young_ghiaccio · Apr 1, 2019

Super late to reply but I created the thread when I was in Italy and loading the roll. The results were incredible!
Thank you all!

I don't have my notes but I think I shot f4 at 1/60 with the hoya IR filter (I'll update when I find my notebook)

Paul Manuell · Apr 2, 2019

young_ghiaccio said:
Super late to reply but I created the thread when I was in Italy and loading the roll. The results were incredible!
Thank you all!

I don't have my notes but I think I shot f4 at 1/60 with the hoya IR filter (I'll update when I find my notebook)

Great photo, hope there're more to come. Just to provide a bit more info, what working method did you employ to arrive at those settings please?

young_ghiaccio · Aug 13, 2019

I still haven't located my notebook (after moving apartments) but I just shot another test roll in NY this past weekend.

I didn't meter this time, I just shot the whole roll at f4 1/60 (bright sun, blue sky, sun to my back) and that seems to be a successful setup with the Mamiya 7... (so far). PS: Using the Hoya 72

Paul Manuell · Aug 14, 2019

young_ghiaccio said:
I still haven't located my notebook (after moving apartments) but I just shot another test roll in NY this past weekend.

I didn't meter this time, I just shot the whole roll at f4 1/60 (bright sun, blue sky, sun to my back) and that seems to be a successful setup with the Mamiya 7... (so far). PS: Using the Hoya 72

Wow, that's a beautiful photo, you should be very proud of it. Your settings of f4 and 1/60th seem to work perfectly. 1/60 is 2 stops faster than the 1/15th I used when shooting with SFX200 and the IR72 filter, but how many stops difference is there between your f4 and the f11 I used (I always find the amount of stops between any 2 fstops confusing to work out compared to shutter speeds)? If it's 2 stops, that would mean our reciprocal exposures were virtually identical.

hsandler · Aug 16, 2019

young_ghiaccio said:
I still haven't located my notebook (after moving apartments) but I just shot another test roll in NY this past weekend.

I didn't meter this time, I just shot the whole roll at f4 1/60 (bright sun, blue sky, sun to my back) and that seems to be a successful setup with the Mamiya 7... (so far). PS: Using the Hoya 72

Great shot. Your results are similar to what I use. My standard exposure with Rollei IR400 and a Hoya R72 filter in bright sun is 1/4 - 1/2s at f16, so about ISO 3 with sunny 16.

BainDarret · Aug 16, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
You will be wasting your time shooting either towards the sun for backlit scenes or from the side.

But it never hurts to try: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/daylight.53107/

Sirius Glass · Aug 16, 2019

BainDarret said:
But it never hurts to try: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/daylight.53107/

I would agree with any other film than Kodak HIE.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 16, 2019

I shoot this film regularly in 4x5. R72 filter. EI 6-12. I treat it like a conventional film when metring.

David Lindquist · Aug 17, 2019

young_ghiaccio said:
Super late to reply but I created the thread when I was in Italy and loading the roll. The results were incredible!
Thank you all!

I don't have my notes but I think I shot f4 at 1/60 with the hoya IR filter (I'll update when I find my notebook)

Very nice work! You've inspired me to try this film again.
What developer did you use and what time and temperature?

David

Sirius Glass · Aug 17, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
I shoot this film regularly in 4x5. R72 filter. EI 6-12. I treat it like a conventional film when metring.

I have been use this film in 120 with the R72 filter setting the meter to ISO 400 and opening up five f/stops which is the same thing. So if the meter read f/16 at 1/500 second that would become f/16 at 1/8 second.

Paul Manuell · Aug 18, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
I have been use this film in 120 with the R72 filter setting the meter to ISO 400 and opening up five f/stops which is the same thing. So if the meter read f/16 at 1/500 second that would become f/16 at 1/8 second.

That's 6 stops, not 5.
1/250
1/125
1/60
1/30
1/15
1/8

DWThomas · Aug 18, 2019

Paul Manuell said:
That's 6 stops, not 5.

Yes -- and that correlates pretty well with my experience. (If you want to really spend some time outdoors, use a 760 nm filter and about 12 stops!)

Sirius Glass · Aug 18, 2019

This is just so embarrassing!

jim10219 · Aug 18, 2019

Great shot! And as you've discovered, you can't use a digital camera to predict a film's response. The reason is digital sensors are highly sensitive to UV and IR light. As such, they have bandpass filters applied directly over the sensors to eliminate UV and IR light, and pass through visible light. Due to the filter, most digital cameras are actually less sensitive to IR light. Sometimes, people will replace these filters so the camera can pick up UV and/or IR light. This is especially popular for astrophotography.

I usually brakcet IR photography. The reason is IR light isn't always consistent with visible light. So the readings from your light meter won't always translate as you think they should. In the noon time sun on a sunny day, ISO 12 is usually good. But even then, some subjects look even better overexposed a bit. So if it's an important shot I want to make sure I get right, I'll usually bracket. Though if it's just a average shot that won't kill me if I lose, I'll save the film and take the gamble (though often at ISO 6).

As an added bonus, IR filters are great at removing atmospheric haze from distant landscapes.

Rollei 400 IR with Hoya 72 vs Fuji XT1

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