Rollei 400 Infrared questions

John Wiegerink · Aug 26, 2022

I haven't shot any infrared film since Konica discontinued their product and decided to give Rollei 400 a try. I need a good starting point in both exposure and in developing.

1. I'll be using a R720 filter, but might take a few shots with deep red also. What is a good starting ISO with the R720 filter? I'm going to use a 6X7 rollback on a 4X5 stopping the lens down to f22. I wonder about any reciprocity factor.

2. I have several developers on hand, but really wanted to use Perceptol 1+1 if I could. The other developers are Pyrocat-HDC, Xtol and Rodinal On the inside of the Rollei film box it shows times for ID11 1+1 at 10:30 min. and Perceptol 1+1 at 10:00 min.. Can that be right?

I appreciate any tips I can get to help swim these uncharted waters and not get eaten by a shark. JohnW

Sirius Glass · Aug 26, 2022

I have been using Rollei IR 400 since HIE was discontinued.
I shoot Rollei IR 400 at box speed - metering then filter adjustment

Metering

Reflectance - either without the sky or on the subject only
Incident
Zone System for shadows

Filters

R25 filter factor = 3
R29 filter factor = 4
R72 aka 720 filter factor = 5 this is my favorite and now I use a filter adapter that lets me flip up the filter for composting and focusing and then flip the filter down for the photograph.

John Wiegerink · Aug 26, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I have been using Rollei IR 400 since HIE was discontinued.
I shoot Rollei IR 400 at box speed - metering then filter adjustment

Metering

Reflectance - either without the sky or on the subject only

Incident

Zone System for shadows

Filters

R25 filter factor = 3

R29 filter factor = 4

R72 aka 720 filter factor = 5 this is my favorite and now I use a filter adapter that lets me flip up the filter for composting and focusing and then flip the filter down for the photograph.

Are you Sirius! That information won't help me since I'm not using my Hasselblad. Ha-ha! I'd guess you are using Xtol for your developer?
Johnw

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 26, 2022

Hi John,

Thank you for commenting on my Rollei IR image in the gallery... I've been working with IR films since the early 90's. HIE large format, and Konica 720, mainly. When HIE went bye bye, I latched onto Efke IR. It's 820nm sensitivity got very close to HIE. I have several sheets in 8x10 and 4x5 still to play around with. I've been using Rollei IR for several years. It's no where near HIE, but it's still fun to work with and capable of producing amazing results. It reaches out to about 780nm, making it more IR film than Ilford SFX. You still need a very strong red filter like a 720, for decent Wood effect. A #29 red isn't too bad. I almost always use a 720. I do have a 760, but side by side comparison shows no difference, other than a stop more exposure. Reciprocity isn't too bad either. There is a compensation chart here, which is very close to my own findings...https://www.rolleianalog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/INFRARED_Datenblatt_EN_R012101.pdf

I rate the film at EI 200 unfiltered. With a 720 filter, I use EI 3... sometimes 1.5, if I want more detail. I have shot this starting at box speed, then adding 5 stops for the filter, but I didn't like how the shadows were being rendered. So, you will have to see what works for you. I develop in Xtol-R, or Pyrocat-HD (once my pile of Xtol is gone, I'll go back to Pyrocat-HD full time... I like the results better for wet printing and scanning).

Sirius Glass · Aug 26, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Are you Sirius! That information won't help me since I'm not using my Hasselblad. Ha-ha! I'd guess you are using Xtol for your developer?
Johnw

Replenished XOL in a Jobo processor

John Wiegerink · Aug 26, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Hi John,

Thank you for commenting on my Rollei IR image in the gallery... I've been working with IR films since the early 90's. HIE large format, and Konica 720, mainly. When HIE went bye bye, I latched onto Efke IR. It's 820nm sensitivity got very close to HIE. I have several sheets in 8x10 and 4x5 still to play around with. I've been using Rollei IR for several years. It's no where near HIE, but it's still fun to work with and capable of producing amazing results. It reaches out to about 780nm, making it more IR film than Ilford SFX. You still need a very strong red filter like a 720, for decent Wood effect. A #29 red isn't too bad. I almost always use a 720. I do have a 760, but side by side comparison shows no difference, other than a stop more exposure. Reciprocity isn't too bad either. There is a compensation chart here, which is very close to my own findings...https://www.rolleianalog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/INFRARED_Datenblatt_EN_R012101.pdf

I rate the film at EI 200 unfiltered. With a 720 filter, I use EI 3... sometimes 1.5, if I want more detail. I have shot this starting at box speed, then adding 5 stops for the filter, but I didn't like how the shadows were being rendered. So, you will have to see what works for you. I develop in Xtol-R, or Pyrocat-HD (once my pile of Xtol is gone, I'll go back to Pyrocat-HD full time... I like the results better for wet printing and scanning).

Andy,
I want to thank you so much. That link and your experience are exactly what I needed for a starting point. I have four 120 rolls to play with and should come pretty close to getting good results. I was going to use my view camera and roll film back, but have decided to use an old Kodak 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 film camera instead. I know exactly how its lens renders and I think it will be perfect for trying Rollei IR out. Do you use your IR mark on your lens for focus with this film, or just focus dead on? I'll try and get some images tomorrow and hopefully scanned them this weekend. Now I have to pick my developer. JohnW

Maris · Aug 26, 2022

Lake Cooroibah #9
Gelatin-silver photograph on Ilford Classic VC FB photographic paper, image size 16.3cm X 16.3cm, from a Rollei Infrared negative
exposed in a Mamiya C220 TLR camera fitted with the 55mm f4.5 lens set and an IR720 filter.

The film was rated at E.I. 10 with metering targeted at supporting Zone III. Development was in well seasoned Xtol-R.
The trees were burned in a bush fire and the black charred areas fall on Zone I or thereabouts.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 26, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Andy,
I want to thank you so much. That link and your experience are exactly what I needed for a starting point. I have four 120 rolls to play with and should come pretty close to getting good results. I was going to use my view camera and roll film back, but have decided to use an old Kodak 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 film camera instead. I know exactly how its lens renders and I think it will be perfect for trying Rollei IR out. Do you use your IR mark on your lens for focus with this film, or just focus dead on? I'll try and get some images tomorrow and hopefully scanned them this weekend. Now I have to pick my developer. JohnW

No need to focus for IR with Rollei IR. Just focus as you normally would. When I use Efke IR and an 87C opaque filter, then I have to focus for IR. Looking forward to seeing your results! Have fun!

Helge · Aug 26, 2022

No need to compensate focus.
No need to be super cautious when loading, though light pipeing can happen.
You can filter it however you like up to 720.
You can get almost litho contrast or very nice mid tone separation with different developers and agitation.
All the IR capable Rollei film are “just” Aviphot 200 or 80.
They are ISO 120 or 50/25 on Earth (not aerial). Real IR speed in good sun is 10 for Aviphot 200 and 3-6 for 80.
Use a polarizer if you want the sky real black and to help not blowing highlights.
Infrared 400 and RPX 25 is probably the good Ilford rolled versions.

tom williams · Aug 26, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
No need to focus for IR with Rollei IR. Just focus as you normally would. When I use Efke IR and an 87C opaque filter, then I have to focus for IR. Looking forward to seeing your results! Have fun!

"No need to focus for IR" - only if no IR filter (R72 for instance) is used?

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 26, 2022

tom williams said:
"No need to focus for IR" - only if no IR filter (R72 for instance) is used?

Focus Rollei IR like it's a conventional film, with or without a filter. Focus, then stick the 720 filter on.

MattKing · Aug 27, 2022

The currently available (near) IR sensitive films don't respond to light out into the 760nm and beyond spectrum.
The need to re-focus the old Kodak HIE film and anything like the Efke 820 was due to the different wavelength of light that they were sensitive to. Long wavelength = need to re-focus.
Rollei 400 and Ilford SFX and similar near IR films = no need to re-focus.

tom williams · Aug 27, 2022

MattKing said:
The currently available (near) IR sensitive films don't respond to light out into the 760nm and beyond spectrum.
The need to re-focus the old Kodak HIE film and anything like the Efke 820 was due to the different wavelength of light that they were sensitive to. Long wavelength = need to re-focus.
Rollei 400 and Ilford SFX and similar near IR films = no need to re-focus.

Very good to know - thank you.

John Wiegerink · Aug 27, 2022

Yes, I kind of figured focusing would be dead-on with this film, but didn't know for sure. Thanks to all for the focus tip. Helge, when you say use a polarizing filter to make the skies black is the rest of the scene a normal B&W negative or does it make other things in the scene change tones also? I guess I can try a shot or two with a polarizer to see for my self. Weather permitting, I'm going out to shoot some of this new to me Rollei IR today. And yes, I will have fun. I always do when I have a camera in hand. JohnW

Helge · Aug 27, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, I kind of figured focusing would be dead-on with this film, but didn't know for sure. Thanks to all for the focus tip. Helge, when you say use a polarizing filter to make the skies black is the rest of the scene a normal B&W negative or does it make other things in the scene change tones also? I guess I can try a shot or two with a polarizer to see for my self. Weather permitting, I'm going out to shoot some of this new to me Rollei IR today. And yes, I will have fun. I always do when I have a camera in hand. JohnW

It changes surfaces that polarizes light in the same way the sky does (if you are trying to take out the blue in the sky). Leaves, water, windows and certain roofing materials will be especially susceptible to polarizer.
Aviphot has a narrow range, so it’s a nice fringe benefit if you want the effect.
An alternative is to use a gradated ND filter on the sky.

Sirius Glass · Aug 27, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, I kind of figured focusing would be dead-on with this film, but didn't know for sure. Thanks to all for the focus tip. Helge, when you say use a polarizing filter to make the skies black is the rest of the scene a normal B&W negative or does it make other things in the scene change tones also? I guess I can try a shot or two with a polarizer to see for my self. Weather permitting, I'm going out to shoot some of this new to me Rollei IR today. And yes, I will have fun. I always do when I have a camera in hand. JohnW

Shooting IR film with a polarizer is just wasting the IR film. A polarizer will not show the infrared end of the spectrum. You will be better off shooting IR film with the lens cap on.

John Wiegerink · Aug 27, 2022

Houston, this is Apollo 13, "We have a problem"! My infrared shooting is on hold. It seems my R72 filter is at my home and I'm at my cottage. Not good! I have my Hoya RM90 filter, but that's probably far to strong for this film. I do have a 25A red filter, but would just as soon try all filters at the same time. I guess I'll have to wait for another day to try this film out. I'll post back on this thread when I do and let you know what I think about Rollei 400 IR. Thanks to all, JohnW

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 27, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Houston, this is Apollo 13, "We have a problem"! My infrared shooting is on hold. It seems my R72 filter is at my home and I'm at my cottage. Not good! I have my Hoya RM90 filter, but that's probably far to strong for this film. I do have a 25A red filter, but would just as soon try all filters at the same time. I guess I'll have to wait for another day to try this film out. I'll post back on this thread when I do and let you know what I think about Rollei 400 IR. Thanks to all, JohnW

You could probably get something with the RM90, if you increase your exposure considerably...I mean, considerably! Looking at the transmittance graph, it seems that Rollei IR just reaches into where the RM90 just starts to transmit any IR. But, I would wait until you get your hands on the R72. Six stops more than box speed, and you definitely get images!

John Wiegerink · Aug 27, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
You could probably get something with the RM90, if you increase your exposure considerably...I mean, considerably! Looking at the transmittance graph, it seems that Rollei IR just reaches into where the RM90 just starts to transmit any IR. But, I would wait until you get your hands on the R72. Six stops more than box speed, and you definitely get images!

I think your are right Andy and I'll just have to wait. I think there must be at least three-four stops more exposure required for the RM90, Maybe even more. I almost used the RM90 thinking it was the R72 until I noticed it seemed much darker than my R72 should be. Good thing I looked at the filter rim or I'd really be scratching my head try to figure out what went wrong. JohnW

Helge · Aug 28, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Shooting IR film with a polarizer is just wasting the IR film. A polarizer will not show the infrared end of the spectrum. You will be better off shooting IR film with the lens cap on.

False.
1. At these NIR wavelengths polarizers work very well.
2. No filter is perfect. A polarizer cuts down on “white” spill in the right parts of the image.
3. You can test how well polarizers works empirically very easily. And it does work very well.
You lose the usual ca. 1.5 stops. But it’s well worth it.

Helge · Aug 28, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Houston, this is Apollo 13, "We have a problem"! My infrared shooting is on hold. It seems my R72 filter is at my home and I'm at my cottage. Not good! I have my Hoya RM90 filter, but that's probably far to strong for this film. I do have a 25A red filter, but would just as soon try all filters at the same time. I guess I'll have to wait for another day to try this film out. I'll post back on this thread when I do and let you know what I think about Rollei 400 IR. Thanks to all, JohnW

If you combine a 25A filter and a polarizer, you still get a lot of deep red/IR effect. And you will likely be able to compose through the finder.

Try it. It’s a look I’m (also) very fond of.
A hint of Woods effect and dark skies. But less contrast.

John Wiegerink · Aug 28, 2022

Helge said:
If you combine a 25A filter and a polarizer, you still get a lot of deep red/IR effect. And you will likely be able to compose through the finder.

Try it. It’s a look I’m (also) very fond of.
A hint of Woods effect and dark skies. But less contrast.

Now that sounds interesting. If I have nothing going later today, I might just sacrifice one roll to experimentation. Thanks much.
JohnW

Helge · Aug 28, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
Now that sounds interesting. If I have nothing going later today, I might just sacrifice one roll to experimentation. Thanks much.
JohnW

I’d probably meter at around EI 25 or 12 depending on how much sun is out.
Three stops down for the red filter from 200 (real speed) to 50 and then minus a stop to one and half for the polarizer.
You don’t need to be conservative as with for example Delta 400 because the response is actually climbing towards 700nm.

John Wiegerink · Aug 28, 2022

Helge said:
I’d probably meter at around EI 25 or 12 depending on how much sun is out.
Three stops down for the red filter from 200 (real speed) to 50 and then minus a stop to one and half for the polarizer.
You don’t need to be conservative as with for example Delta 400 because the response is actually climbing towards 700nm.

OK, thanks.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 28, 2022

When using wide optics, be aware of corner vignetting when stacking filters... I avoid it by using the PL with a red gel filter.

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