Roll of BW Paper for economy

[arturo_rs]

Hello. I mainly shoot color film and make prints with RA4 paper.

I buy rolls of RA4 (40cm x 80m aprox.) paper and the cost, compared to bw sheets (Foma), it is more than double per m2. I don´t find where I can buy rolls of bw paper, even if they exist.

Any clue? I live in Europe. Thanks.

 

[thinkbrown]

My understanding is that the cost difference between RA4 and black and white paper is due in large part to silver content.

 

[koraks]

I don´t find where I can buy rolls of bw paper, even if they exist.

Black & white papers

www.macodirect.de

You'll notice that Foma has a kind of attractive proposition compared to the other brands, but it's still way more expensive than printing color RA4.

My understanding is that the cost difference between RA4 and black and white paper is due in large part to silver content.

That's probably partly true (although not necessarily), but not the whole story. Two other crucial factors are the paper base itself which does a lot to drive up the price of fiber-based paper, and, perhaps most importantly, manufacturing volumes. RA4 paper is made by Fuji in quantities that are a pipe dream from the very distant past for companies like Foma and Harman.

 

[Ian Grant]

I have rolls of Ilford Multigrade IV 12.7cm wide, one 76 metres, the other 152 metres. I bought them on eBay and they ere cheap, I'm just finishing a similar roll of Kodak MG paper I was givebn around 2003, still as good as new in terms of print quality, I have a second but it must have been stored somewhere damp and the rioll sticks slightly, these 2 came from a no closed pro Colour lab locally.

I also have a 106.7cm x 30m roll of MGIV but I'm not sure if it's any good now.

Unlike RA-4 there's less economy buying rolls of B&W paper. For Fuji the savings are packaging and storage, and processing machines need rolls, so a roll has greater capacity print wise, you are selling a greater volume, so costs can be kept down.
Ian

 

[arturo_rs]

OMG, way way more expensive. I stay with color.

 

[koraks]

OMG, way way more expensive.

Very much so. Arguably, it's not so much that B&W is expensive - IMO a more accurate assessment is that RA4 is ridiculously cheap, which is mostly due to the fact that its price has been squeezed into vanishing profitability initially through regular competition and then by means of availability of alternatives. Ride that wave while you can.

 

[halfaman]

RA4 is cheap and it must remain cheap if "wet printing" wants to survive. Rolls is the shape how it is produced because all commercial printers that support the business work with rolls for higher productivity. Sheet volume is negligible and Fuji will never ever think on trying. All RA4 sheets in the market are produced by third-parties charging their fee, and almost all of them use standard rolls.

BW silver photo paper is only produced in sheets for darkroom print, the days of BW RC printers are gone quite some decades ago. The only rolls I have ever seen in a darkroom were for large prints around 1 meter, a roll is far more convenient to ship in those sizes than sheets.

 

[Ian Grant]

Very much so. Arguably, it's not so much that B&W is expensive - IMO a more accurate assessment is that RA4 is ridiculously cheap, which is mostly due to the fact that its price has been squeezed into vanishing profitability initially through regular competition and then by means of availability of alternatives. Ride that wave while you can.

It's probably also the volume of each coating run, Ilford's B&W paper range is quite varied, with various emulsions, paper surfaces, as well as FB & RC. Fuji's RA-4 range is only RC, and less variations,

It is also no longer particularly economic buying 30mm bulk rolls of 35mm films.

Ian

 

[koraks]

Fuji's RA-4 range is only RC, and less variations,

One recent sample box I have of them contains 25 variants which all require separate coating runs, across a handful of different bases. I know that this list also not complete; there are more. So the product variants that require separate coating runs are in the same order of magnitude.

 

[Rick A]

Buying rolls of B&W paper is still more cost effective than buying sized paper by the box, cutting the sizes you need is an added bonus. I cut 8x12 inch sheets for printing 6x9 negatives full frame (good for 35mm negatives).

 

[MattKing]

With Ilford branded paper, you need to differentiate between the rolls of more traditional type paper, and the Multigrade RC Express rolls that are designed for the machines that use high intensity, short duration exposures - those machines being found in high speed, high volume commercial labs.
The Multigrade Express paper will respond differently then the traditional paper, due to its being optimized for short duration (laser?) exposure.
Here is the website link for the glossy version: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/multigrade-rc-express-glossy
IIRC, some have had some success using the paper in more traditional ways, but I'm not sure what trade-offs were involved.
I do like the 12" x 250 foot size though.

 

[Ian Grant]

With Ilford branded paper, you need to differentiate between the rolls of more traditional type paper, and the Multigrade RC Express rolls that are designed for the machines that use high intensity, short duration exposures - those machines being found in high speed, high volume commercial labs.
The Multigrade Express paper will respond differently then the traditional paper, due to its being optimized for short duration (laser?) exposure.
Here is the website link for the glossy version: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/multigrade-rc-express-glossy
IIRC, some have had some success using the paper in more traditional ways, but I'm not sure what trade-offs were involved.
I do like the 12" x 250 foot size though.

​

Product Description​

ILFORD MULTIGRADE EXPRESS PF is a high speed, variable contrast black & white paper on a bright white, resin coated base.
It is specially designed for high speed printing applications and compatible with all conventional black & white exposing and photo finishing equipment found in professional labs, including automatic and semi-automatic printers, printer-processors and minilabs.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I don't know why there's no link to the MG RC Express data sheet, I have a copy.

The ISO Paper Speed doesn't differ much from other MG RC papers, except for Warmtone.

The major difference appears to be almost no reciprocity failure with the very short exposures, essential the paper is optimised to be used at at an exposure time of around 50 milliseconds (1/20 )for a normal negative, using high intensity, oft more than one lamp, continuous light, and a shutter control exposure.

There are no issues using these papers conventionally. I've been using a roll for a while now. They might be an advantage for paper negatives if the greatly reduced reciprocity is mirrored at the other end of the exposure range. A 12" roll would be useful as I have a 12"x10" field camera.

Ian

 

[npl]

Silly question probably, but what does Ilford XP2 (C41 B&W film) look like printed on RA4 paper ?

 

[Ian Grant]

Silly question probably, but what does Ilford XP2 (C41 B&W film) look like printed on RA4 paper ?

Depends on the filtration, people used to print B&W negs in colour papers for special effects, I think Michael Langford had examples in his Darkroom Handbook.

Ian

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Silly question probably, but what does Ilford XP2 (C41 B&W film) look like printed on RA4 paper ?

Not a silly question at all! I would also be interested in knowing if neutral tone print can be made from C41 developed XP2S negatives and C41 film negatives developed in B&W developers on RA4 paper.

 

[Paul Howell]

I shot a few rolls of Kodak's version of XP2 and had it printed on a minilab, came out fine. When I printed at home on R4 found that I had difficult time correction for contrast, no orange mask, the minilab, a Fuji Frontier did a good correcting. At home I would print on black and white paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

With Ilford branded paper, you need to differentiate between the rolls of more traditional type paper, and the Multigrade RC Express rolls that are designed for the machines that use high intensity, short duration exposures - those machines being found in high speed, high volume commercial labs.
The Multigrade Express paper will respond differently then the traditional paper, due to its being optimized for short duration (laser?) exposure.

The Lab papers for Laser & LED exposure in machines like converted Fuji Frontiere printers are sold under the Harman brand and have a Panchromatic emulsion, so must be used in total darkness.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

The Lab papers for Laser & LED exposure in machines like converted Fuji Frontiere printers are sold under the Harman brand and have a Panchromatic emulsion, so must be used in total darkness.

Ian

Thanks for that link Ian.
For some reason, it forces my browser into the smallest magnification available, but I figured it out
It is interesting that those papers include some fibre based rolls.
EDIT: being panchromatic, this Harman paper would be suitable for printing from colour negative.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ian - Fuji doesn't just offer RC color paper. They also coat onto both opaque white and transparent PET base (Fujiflex and Fujitrans). Those are still coated in Japan. Hard to say how long those will still be offered; but there is a fair amount of demand for Fujiflex Supergloss in the US, which is sold only in big expensive 30,40, and 50 inch wide rolls. Nothing fiber-based.

At one time, Ilford made a sample run of MGIV emulsion onto full gloss Cibachrome PET base. I don't think any of it was sold; it was just a demonstration of the unique look.

Specialty paper per se is getting quite expensive in general. Along with rising silver prices, it's one more factor dramatically driving up the cost of FB b&w paper. Now tariff impact too.

 

[foc]

Silly question probably, but what does Ilford XP2 (C41 B&W film) look like printed on RA4 paper ?

Back in the late 1980s, I made 10x8 inch B&W prints from Agfa Vario XL / IlfordXP2 35mm negatives on EP2 colour paper. The prints were for a national newspaper, unionised, and would only accept B&W prints
It took a little testing on a Durst Miniprinter, with a clear piece of C41 orange masked negative between the light source and the XL / XP negative. Once I had the basic filtration, all I needed to do was a colour "ringaround" to get the B&W look (ie: no colour casts on the print)

When I changed, a few years later< to RA4 and a Fuji Frontier, it didn't matter any more.

 

[koraks]

Silly question probably, but what does Ilford XP2 (C41 B&W film) look like printed on RA4 paper ?

Like any other B&W negative printed onto RA4; generally too contrasty, but you can often amend that to a great extent by flashing the paper. This can also be used to create rather striking split-toned prints. This isn't XP2, but a low-contrast Delta 100 negative printed onto color RA4 paper using pre-flashing to produce a very strong split tone/duotone: