Roll film holders: Red Window

[Darryl Roberts]

Hi,

There are roll film holders with lovely hard stops and black and white numbering, and there are those with the yesteryear red window. I'm asking about the latter.

If I purchase one of these, I'm looking at the Shen Hao 6x12 6x9 6x6 6x4.5 Roll Film Back Holder. If it's low light and I need a flashlight/torch to assist me in seeing the number, will this damage my film?

Thank you

 

[grahamp]

I have a couple of cameras where I have to tilt the back into full sun to read the numbers properly through the red window. A flashlight should not be a problem. Properly set backs should not leak light around the backing paper, and the backing paper is supposed to be light proof in normal use. Just use the cover when you are not checking the frame number.

I'm not sure the window even needs to be red these days with panchromatic film. I have a back that just has a sliding shutter - any red window is long gone - and it is fine. The window and numbered backing paper is a hold-over from early cameras, but it is still useful.

If you are having light leak issues, I'd look at the camera seating and the dark slide seal before wondering about the frame counter window(s).

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have a couple of cameras where I have to tilt the back into full sun to read the numbers properly through the red window. A flashlight should not be a problem. Properly set backs should not leak light around the backing paper, and the backing paper is supposed to be light proof in normal use. Just use the cover when you are not checking the frame number.

I'm not sure the window even needs to be red these days with panchromatic film. I have a back that just has a sliding shutter - any red window is long gone - and it is fine. The window and numbered backing paper is a hold-over from early cameras, but it is still useful.

If you are having light leak issues, I'd look at the camera seating and the dark slide seal before wondering about the frame counter window(s).

doesn' panchromatic' mean sensitive to blue and red?

 

[MattKing]

doesn' panchromatic' mean sensitive to blue and red?

Yes - and green as well.
The point though is that the colour of the window doesn't matter with panchromatic film.
I used a pinhole camera until recently that had three holes (corresponding to the three formats I could use it with) and no windows. No leakage issues.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I have a couple of cameras where I have to tilt the back into full sun to read the numbers properly through the red window. A flashlight should not be a problem. Properly set backs should not leak light around the backing paper, and the backing paper is supposed to be light proof in normal use. Just use the cover when you are not checking the frame number.

I'm not sure the window even needs to be red these days with panchromatic film. I have a back that just has a sliding shutter - any red window is long gone - and it is fine. The window and numbered backing paper is a hold-over from early cameras, but it is still useful.

If you are having light leak issues, I'd look at the camera seating and the dark slide seal before wondering about the frame counter window(s).

Thank you very much.

 

[blee1996]

I have a 3D printed 6x17 camera that does not even have a red window: it is just a hole. And so far I have not had light leak issues.

 

[Chuck1]

I saw a 3d printed 6x12 with a hole to be covered by the end tab of the film box, it made me cringe, maybe I'll reconsider it.
There were issues some time ago with those numbers being printed very faint, and were hard to see

 

[blee1996]

I saw a 3d printed 6x12 with a hole to be covered by the end tab of the film box, it made me cringe, maybe I'll reconsider it.
There were issues some time ago with those numbers being printed very faint, and were hard to see

For peace of mind, you can stick on those "webcam privacy shutters". They should be light proof, when you slide the window closed.

 

[John Wiegerink]

For peace of mind, you can stick on those "webcam privacy shutters". They should be light proof, when you slide the window closed.

View attachment 358021

I just ordered something similar to these on Amazon. Darn cheap if they work properly.

 

[koraks]

I'm looking at the Shen Hao 6x12 6x9 6x6 6x4.5 Roll Film Back Holder.

I'd have to unpack mine to check, but if I recall correctly, it has a little metal slide over the window that you can open just to inspect the frame advance and then close it up again.
And no, I've never had any problems with light leaks this way, but I wouldn't tempt fate by leaving the window uncovered in bright sunshine. The opacity of backing paper isn't an absolute thing; at some point, it *will* print through.

 

[guangong]

The red window on my Super Ikonta A was, for all practical purpose, opaque. In addition to red window is a sliding cover. I cut the red window out without any negative consequences. The window is only open to wind film, then closed.

 

[Mondo1]

I have two 6x12 DaYi/ShenHao backs (an old versions and a new version), none have a red window it is just a hole, you can see the actual backing paper through that hole without any barriers, there is a latch there you can open and close that window and I always forget to close it. I used these backs many times in bright sunlight and many times in studio with high power flashes and never had any light coming through the number hole (although I had a million other problems with them)

 

[KinoGrafx]

Just out of curiosity i grabbed a powerful led flashlight and held it to a couple different 120 backing papers and not even a dim glow came through. They seem to be completely opaque, which is good!

 

[John Wiegerink]

I think it also makes a difference as to what camera or back you are using. Some of the old roll-film cameras like the Kodak's had no pressure plates, which would certainly make me worry about light getting around the edge of the film and streaking the emulsion. More modern roll-film cameras were built to tighter tolerances and probably much less prone to light leaking around the edge of the paper backing.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I have two 6x12 DaYi/ShenHao backs (an old versions and a new version), none have a red window it is just a hole, you can see the actual backing paper through that hole without any barriers, there is a latch there you can open and close that window and I always forget to close it. I used these backs many times in bright sunlight and many times in studio with high power flashes and never had any light coming through the number hole (although I had a million other problems with them)

Thank you please share the other problems.

 

[Mondo1]

Thank you please share the other problems.

I have a very painful history with these backs but maybe it was just me there are some other people happy with them so here is my experience :

My new version has a strange light leak, not big but still too annoying, shows as two hair lines on both side of the frame 2/3 millimetre from each end (on the 6cm ends). I thought it might be related to darkslide slot so I started to not take the darkslide all they way out, it didn't fix the problem. there are some elements inside that were not black, I then painted everything black with a sharpie pen but it dint fix the problem, I then wrapped the whole unit in aluminium foil it didn't fix the problem either the hairlines still there, I thought the darkslide slot might be slightly bigger/wider than the thickness of the provided darkslide so I decided to make a DIY darkslide slightly thicker but could not find any sheet of metal to the thickness... so I ended up photoshopping those hairlines or crop them out... then a year later I found one secondhand on ebay ( the older version) I asked the seller if it had light leaks and he said no, so I bought that one, no lightleaks there but it scratches the non emulsion side of film... i taped anything sharp inside it but didnt fix the problem, changed a few rods etc inside, didnt fix the problem either ....

then I bought 2 horseman 6x12 backs .. oh what a relief! Thanks Lord! ... I kiss them every time I work with them, they are absolute gems, so easy and quick to load, you don't have to worry about the (non red) window and wind manually to every odd number, [the DaYi/shenhao didnt even have an arrow on winding dial so i had to draw an arrow there to know in which direction I had to roll the wheel] with the horseman you just open it, load the film and align the 'start' arrow to the mark inside, close it and off you go... it has its own numbering system on the top of it only showing you from 1 to 6 also has double exposure preventing mechanism and a nice smooth winding handle (similar to your 35mm cameras or Mamiya press/23 backs)

I wish I bought the horsemans at first and didn't waste my life/money/time on those...

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I have a very painful history with these backs but maybe it was just me there are some other people happy with them so here is my experience :

My new version has a strange light leak, not big but still too annoying, shows as two hair lines on both side of the frame 2/3 millimetre from each end (on the 6cm ends). I thought it might be related to darkslide slot so I started to not take the darkslide all they way out, it didn't fix the problem. there are some elements inside that were not black, I then painted everything black with a sharpie pen but it dint fix the problem, I then wrapped the whole unit in aluminium foil it didn't fix the problem either the hairlines still there, I thought the darkslide slot might be slightly bigger/wider than the thickness of the provided darkslide so I decided to make a DIY darkslide slightly thicker but could not find any sheet of metal to the thickness... so I ended up photoshopping those hairlines or crop them out... then a year later I found one secondhand on ebay ( the older version) I asked the seller if it had light leaks and he said no, so I bought that one, no lightleaks there but it scratches the non emulsion side of film... i taped anything sharp inside it but didnt fix the problem, changed a few rods etc inside, didnt fix the problem either ....

then I bought 2 horseman 6x12 backs .. oh what a relief! Thanks Lord! ... I kiss them every time I work with them, they are absolute gems, so easy and quick to load, you don't have to worry about the (non red) window and wind manually to every odd number, [the DaYi/shenhao didnt even have an arrow on winding dial so i had to draw an arrow there to know in which direction I had to roll the wheel] with the horseman you just open it, load the film and align the 'start' arrow to the mark inside, close it and off you go... it has its own numbering system on the top of it only showing you from 1 to 6 also has double exposure preventing mechanism and a nice smooth winding handle (similar to your 35mm cameras or Mamiya press/23 backs)

I wish I bought the horsemans at first and didn't waste my life/money/time on those...

Thank you VERY much I’ll just save up more money and get the Horseman.

A guy on facebook was selling a Widepan that looks very similar.

 

[MattKing]

Just out of curiosity i grabbed a powerful led flashlight and held it to a couple different 120 backing papers and not even a dim glow came through. They seem to be completely opaque, which is good!

That is one of the reasons that modern backing paper is more expensive for the film manufacturers to buy than what it costs them to make the film to put it with.
That and the fact that it isn't actually flat (thinner at the edges than in the middle), dimensionally very stable and highly accurately cut, able to take and hold ink that is resistant to both migration and transfer and unreactive with the emulsions it is pressed against, as well as being resistant itself to reacting with those emulsions.
FWIW, the biggest issue with the light coming through the windows isn't whether it goes through the paper, but rather whether the light can somehow et around the backing paper. That issue relates to how the camera is constructed and maintained.

 

[Chuck1]

The horsemans are nice.
Kumar had a cambo 6x12 listed, I think it is still listed.
The advantage is it slips under the ground glass, then you don't have to find a place to put the GG, and you won't drop it, makes things a little quicker.
Parts are the only issue...
The sinar adjustable 6x4.5-6x12 roll back looks tempting, but I'd break it.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

The horsemans are nice.
Kumar had a cambo 6x12 listed, I think it is still listed.
The advantage is it slips under the ground glass, then you don't have to find a place to put the GG, and you won't drop it, makes things a little quicker.
Parts are the only issue...
The sinar adjustable 6x4.5-6x12 roll back looks tempting, but I'd break it.

I heard the Cambo 6x12 has trouble loading and the slide causes light leaks. Expired Bren on Youtube told me that when I asked him about it.

 

[koraks]

I make do with the Shen Hao; it works for me and I see absolutely no way to justify the expense of a Horseman or Sinar. Maybe if I used it all day, every day...

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I think it also makes a difference as to what camera or back you are using. Some of the old roll-film cameras like the Kodak's had no pressure plates, which would certainly make me worry about light getting around the edge of the film and streaking the emulsion. More modern roll-film cameras were built to tighter tolerances and probably much less prone to light leaking around the edge of the paper backing.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

The horsemans are nice.
Kumar had a cambo 6x12 listed, I think it is still listed.
The advantage is it slips under the ground glass, then you don't have to find a place to put the GG, and you won't drop it, makes things a little quicker.
Parts are the only issue...
The sinar adjustable 6x4.5-6x12 roll back looks tempting, but I'd break it.

 

[Darryl Roberts]

I make do with the Shen Hao; it works for me and I see absolutely no way to justify the expense of a Horseman or Sinar. Maybe if I used it all day, every day...

I travel and would be very sad if, because I went cheaper, I end with a damaged picture.

Thank you.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, I can see the sense in that. For me, the 6x12 thing is more of a novelty that I use only occasionally. Well, rarely, really.
The Horseman is certainly the better product; I had those in 6x7 and 6x9, and they're just rugged, convenient and dependable pieces of kit. The Shen Hao is more of a glorified DIY solution.