Rodinal

[Trask]

I'm sorry -- I'm reasonably intelligent, but this all surpasses my understanding. Maybe a Venn diagram would help, as a visual representation oftens clarifies these kinds of interlocking issues.

 

[RobertV]

I'm reasonably intelligent, but this all surpasses my understanding

Yes, the problem is that different distributors are selling the same stuff under different name. Hence I decided to offer Rodinal 125ml/500ml under R09 one shot / Rodinal in the shop.
As Dutch Foma distributor I could also offer Fomadon R09 new 250ml but that would hardly add something extra to it.
Next year it can be more complicated because Fomadon R09 is maybe again Calbe R09 compatible but due to the new concentrate also in 1+25 - 1+50 etc. so then the mess is complete. New Rodinal R09 looks like Yellow when new, where new Calbe R09 looks like Coke

Unfortunately the lifetime of Calbe R09 is not so long as the Rodinal R09 from former Agfa production.
Hopefully you can still follow me ......

 

[AgX]

But, aside of historic aspects, the essence of this thread so far is that all Rodinal-something products produce the same or similar negatives if one follows the instruction.

The really confusing thing however is that Maco offers a R09 Special and a R09 Studio, which to my understandung are both the same as old Agfa Studional (now Agfa TonalDev).

 

[RobertV]

R09 Special ]

Under Agfa brand: Rodinal Special, which had NOTHING to do with Rodinal (only the name). So confusing names only ........

 

[AgX]

Okay, Agfa years ago (with their Rodinal Special) started this confusion. But that should not be a reason to go on with this...
Especially in times with so many names around.

 

[Snapper]

But if the worst did ever happen, and Rodinal (or whatever it's now called) was no longer manufactured, we'd still be able to mix it up ourselves from raw, right?

 

[RobertV]

we'd still be able to mix it up ourselves from raw, right?

I do not think the actual Rodinal / R09 one shot fomulae was ever published. However the variant of Calbe R09 I have seen in some places. A main problem could be the induvidual chemicals in the future.
I can remember the obselete ingredient for May & Baker Promicrol fine grain developer with box speed. Or Atomal.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-Developers-cln-Film/Categories.bok

Photographic formulary had it in their list but it is not so easy to make it yourself. Maybe the reason they put it out.

This receipt is pretty close to it:
http://www.jackspcs.com/frodinal.htm

 

[AgX]

This receipt is pretty close to it:
http://www.jackspcs.com/frodinal.htm

This recipe orders you to add water to solid Sodiumhydroxide!

 

[RobertV]

This recipe orders you to add water to solid Sodiumhydroxide!

Well it's not like adding a strong Acid in the wrong sequence. BTW it's Potassiumhydroxide (KOH) not Sodiumhydroxide (NaOH).

 

[RobertV]

About Agfa, OrWo and the whole history:

Autor(en): Karlsch, Rainer; Wagner, Paul Werner
Titel: Die AGFA-ORWO-Story. Geschichte der Filmfabrik Wolfen und ihrer Nachfolger
Ort: Berlin
Verlag: Verlag fuer Berlin-Brandenburg
Jahr: 2010
ISBN: 978-3-942476-04-1
Bemerkungen: 108 Abb.
Umfang/Preis: 240 S.; € 19,90

Maybe a good seller

Greetz,

Robert

 

[Removed Account2]

This recipe orders you to add water to solid Sodiumhydroxide!

It also outlines the proper procedure to do this - if you think this is impossible to do, you have never set foot in a lab - and prints proper warnings about what can go wrong, what is to watch out for, and what do to in case of an emergency.

So what was your gripe?

 

[Casey Kidwell]

Alright, the guy that started another Rodinal thread needs to be severely reprimanded and receive 20 demerits.

 

[Vlad Soare]

This recipe orders you to add water to solid Sodiumhydroxide!

It also outlines the proper procedure to do this - if you think this is impossible to do, you have never set foot in a lab - and prints proper warnings about what can go wrong, what is to watch out for, and what do to in case of an emergency.

So what was your gripe?

I think he's talking about the mixing order. The usual recommendation is to add sodium/potassium hydroxide to water, not the other way around.

 

[AgX]

Yes, this was my concern.

 

[RobertV]

Well that's the difference of a Cook book or a Cook OVER book

 

[Removed Account2]

I think he's talking about the mixing order. The usual recommendation is to add sodium/potassium hydroxide to water, not the other way around.

Mixing order : there might be other concerns, dictating mixing order, like whenever you have ascorbic acid, its better to have a strong basic solution, to convert the acid into ascorbate, for instance......

So what do you do when you have a strong basic solution that needs to be diluted?

Add water of course!

Since I have actually worked in a lab in my work career, and have actually spent time in a lab during my educational years, thats the way its done, while taking precautionary steps, of course.

When you do things like that for a living, caution is ingrained, so that you always watch out for what you and your colleges do, so that no catastrophe happens. If things get hot, its usually a good warning that one needs to slow down.

The warning outlined in the procedure under debate was ample, I feel.

People that have no clue about chemistry, should step back well before they start handling NaOH or KOH, and BTW there is no big difference between the two when it comes to dilution.

I think the procedure referred in that link was OK, given that those that try it has some experience with chemistry.

Erik

 

[Q.G.]

So what do you do when you have a strong basic solution that needs to be diluted?

Add water of course!

There is another option: add it to water.

It's what i was taught to do.

 

[Vlad Soare]

The reasoning behind adding solid sodium/potassium hydroxide to water, and not the other way around, is that a massive amount of heat will be generated. If there's just a small amount of water (and the amount of water will be small in the first seconds, until you get to pour all of it), it can boil and vaporize. If you add solid hydroxide to a larger amount of cold water, the heat is more easily dissipated within the entire mass of water, and boiling is less likely.

That's the theory. Whether it's OK in practice to pour water over solid hydroxide, I don't know. It may be. I'm not a professional chemist. I'm just repeating some recommendations I've read or heard from people more knowledgeable than myself.

 

[Removed Account2]

Just read ALL of what was in the link to that formula, everything is outlined and explained there, water bath, ice etc etc, SOP with stuff like that, and perfectly safe, if you know what to do.

Now I realize that the net is dangerous to those that never read the manual on anything, but most likely they're dead driving, before the get around to mixing anything.......

 

[Q.G.]

Now what would qualify to be "ALL" or "everything"?
The same site tells us about that stuff: "When making solutions, add compound slowly with agitation to the surface of the solution to avoid violent spattering."
Very wise to do it that way round.

 

[mts]

I too eventually (after thirty years) ran out of Rodinal. I mixed a new batch as described, put it into the original bottle with rubber stopper and plastic cap and figure I will never ever in my lifetime have to mix any more. It works fine.

 

[RobertV]

On page 54: Sammlung Fotografischer Rezepte (U. Raffay) is also a Rodinal type developer. Raffay is more carefull in the description how to handle and making the developer. Recommended! But only in German language available.

 

[Alan Johnson]

CMS has overtaken the (ex Agfa) chemical plant in Vaihingen-Enz. They are producing Rodinal according the same Agfa receipt.
It's called R09 one shot in most places in Europe. Even Foma is taking from the same factory now: Fomadon R09 NEW. 1+25 - 1+50 - 1+100 are the regular dilutions. Rodinal/ R09 one shot is the oldest commercial developer since 1891.

No reason at all to panic that these chemicals will disappear.

Best regards,

Robert

Is the name "Vaihingen Enz" in the small print sufficient to identify RO9 as made to the recent discontinued Agfa Rodinal recipe?

 

[RobertV]

Is the name "Vaihingen Enz" in the small print sufficient to identify RO9 as made to the recent discontinued Agfa Rodinal recipe?

From the label in small letters:
Produced as RODINAL by Connect Chemicals Production & Services GmbH Vaihingen Enz, Germany for Compard KG Mercatorstrasse 65 Geesthacht Germany.

So the bulk barrel is produced by CCP&S, filling the bottles by Compard both in Germany.

This stands for the original Agfa Rodinal.

 

[AgX]

No, it is not the original Agfa version, but the Agfa version we know. (See the history of its assumed formula development, in this thread.)
After all this hairsplitting we should keep it all correct...