Rodinal with Phenidone and/or Na-ascorbate

[Sidd]

Had anyone ever experimented mixing Rodinal with Phenidone and/ or Sodium Ascorbate? I think it may be interesting. If anybody tried this or know regarding this please share.

 

[Milpool]

Had anyone ever experimented mixing Rodinal with Phenidone and/ or Sodium Ascorbate? I think it may be interesting. If anybody tried this or know regarding this please share.

Years ago a tinkerer named Patrick Gainer wrote an article about his experiments with Rodinal (I think it was in Photo Techniques magazine but I could be wrong) which included the addition of ascorbate. If memory serves the result was somewhat finer grain with that particular addition. I don’t remember how much he added etc.

Phenidone would be an odd addition to an aminophenol developer but I guess it can never hurt to try stuff and see what happens. You’d probably want to start with tiny amounts - at the very high pH of Rodinal, Phenidones will be very active so you’ll need to watch out for potentially high fog.

 

[Sidd]

Years ago a tinkerer named Patrick Gainer wrote an article about his experiments with Rodinal (I think it was in Photo Techniques magazine but I could be wrong) which included the addition of ascorbate. If memory serves the result was somewhat finer grain with that particular addition. I don’t remember how much he added etc.

Phenidone would be an odd addition to an aminophenol developer but I guess it can never hurt to try stuff and see what happens. You’d probably want to start with tiny amounts - at the very high pH of Rodinal, Phenidones will be very active so you’ll need to watch out for potentially high fog.

I am presently much interested in Rodinal. I am reading as much resources I can get in the net, including Patrick Gainer's writings, especially those available here and photo.net . Although I am fifty eight years old, I have started my journey in black and white film photography only recently. For this reason I don't have much older literatures available with me. If you could help me with the Gainer's articles in Photo Techniques, which you have referred, I would be much obliged. I mean provide me the issue date or number, or a soft copy of the article.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Search Photrio for rodinal ascorbate by member Gainer, he posted quite a bit. He tried Rodinal +sodium sulfite as well.
The active ingredient in Rodinal is p-aminophenol, like metol, it is an aminophenol. The oxide of metol alone blocks development, in presence of sulfite it is removed by reaction and in presence of ascorbate it is regenerated to metol. The mechanism in Rodinal is likely similar.
Addition of the near neutral sodium ascorbate is preferred as addition of ascorbic acid alone will slow or stop development as the solution becomes more acidic.

 

[Sidd]

Search Photrio for rodinal ascorbate by member Gainer, he posted quite a bit. He tried Rodinal +sodium sulfite as well.
The active ingredient in Rodinal is p-aminophenol, like metol, it is an aminophenol. The oxide of metol alone blocks development, in presence of sulfite it is removed by reaction and in presence of ascorbate it is regenerated to metol. The mechanism in Rodinal is likely similar.
Addition of the near neutral sodium ascorbate is preferred as addition of ascorbic acid alone will slow or stop development as the solution becomes more acidic.

I have read all Gainer's post here I could find, including one on usage of Sodium Ascorbate. In fact, tried that yesterday. I was searching whether anyone has ever tried a bit of Phenidone with it? I haven't seen any writing in this regard.

 

[Milpool]

If I remember the Photo Techniques article correctly the Rodinal+additional sulfite result was pretty lousy.

I can’t recall ever seeing anything definitive regarding whether or not p-aminophenol-ascorbate is superadditive but if it is, the effect of a reduction in Rodinal pH with the addition of ascorbic acid (a weak acid, mind you) could be offset or more than offset by additive/superadditive kinematics.

Search Photrio for rodinal ascorbate by member Gainer, he posted quite a bit. He tried Rodinal +sodium sulfite as well.
Rodinal, like metol, is an aminophenol. The oxide of metol alone blocks development, in presence of sulfite it is removed by reaction and in presence of ascorbate it is regenerated to metol. The mechanism for Rodinal is likely similar.
Addition of the near neutral sodium ascorbate is preferred as addition of ascorbic acid alone will slow or stop development as the solution becomes more acidic.

 

[Milpool]

I have read all Gainer's post here I could find, including one on usage of Sodium Ascorbate. In fact, tried that yesterday. I was searching whether anyone has ever tried a bit of Phenidone with it? I haven't seen any writing in this regard.

Since the “primary” developing agent in Rodinal is an aminophenol it is unlikely many people have experimented with the addition of Phenidones. I don’t know of much literature on the use of that combination other than Anneman’s patent for the low contrast Perfection XR-1 and a few of Crawley’s developers. In these cases, however, HQ is also present.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

This is what I found 'digging' on my computer. I downloaded it 'ages' ago (in 2006)...
Both the pdf's are written by Pat Gainer, and just for the fun I added an article on Rodinal (the jpg's) but I don't recall where I found it, sorry.

 

[Sidd]

Last night I found in photo.net thread -"Rodinal with Ascorbate - what am I doing wrong???" from May 2002, a comment by Patrick Gainer himself dated May 8, 2002, where he said that, if I am not very wrong, he tried phenidone in Rodinal. I am enclosing a screenshot of his comment, but he did not specify or elaborate on the topic.

 

[Sidd]

This is what I found 'hiding' on my computer. I downloaded it 'ages' ago (in 2006)...
Both the pdf's are written by Pat Gainer, and just for the fun I added an article on Rodinal (the jpg's) but I don't recall where I found it, sorry.


View attachment 374924 View attachment 374925 View attachment 374926 View attachment 374928

Philippe-Georges, I have just read the article by Bob Schwalberg, my main observation is that he credits the characteristics which has made Rodinal famous is due to the use of single developing agent. Schwalberg famously advocated use of fewer number of developing agents.
Patrick Gainer's articles depict his known position, and I find indicative towards our search.

​

 

[skahde]

I know this is heresy during the service but: With respect to rodinal, to my mind, it tells a story, that not a single one of the big manufacturers made their own version even long after the patent expired. I understand the cult-following but don't think it's based on any photographic virtue besides giving punchy and excessive grain with some films. If you like it, take it for what it is.

But if you don't: Trying to put lipstick on that pig by adding ingredients won't bring you anywhere near the quality of other, well-balanced formulas. Just use those.

 

[FotoD]

This is what I found 'hiding' on my computer.

Thanks for sharing. The article was a nice read.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

I know this is heresy during the service but: With respect to rodinal, to my mind, it tells a story, that not a single one of the big manufacturers made their own version even long after the patent expired. I understand the cult-following but don't think it's based on any photographic virtue besides giving punchy and excessive grain with some films. If you like it, take it for what it is.

But if you don't: Trying to put lipstick on that pig by adding ingredients won't bring you anywhere near the quality of other, well-balanced formulas. Just use those.

Exactly, that is why I abandoned Rodinal once the genuine AGFA Pan film's disappeared because I found that the results with other brand's films processed in Rodinal couldn't reach characteristics of the AGFA combination...

 

[Lachlan Young]

I know this is heresy during the service but: With respect to rodinal, to my mind, it tells a story, that not a single one of the big manufacturers made their own version even long after the patent expired. I understand the cult-following but don't think it's based on any photographic virtue besides giving punchy and excessive grain with some films. If you like it, take it for what it is.

But if you don't: Trying to put lipstick on that pig by adding ingredients won't bring you anywhere near the quality of other, well-balanced formulas. Just use those.

Its main value is the longevity of the stock solution - and it is a more than ok developer if used sensibly. That said, you are correct in drawing the conclusion that the competition (and Agfa) had long ago worked out the mechanism of Rodinal and how to achieve better speed/ grain/ sharpness/ curve shape relationships - and that the pH of Rodinal is too high for maximum sharpness.

In short, an optimised PQ developer at a pH very close to 10 will do the job far, far better.

 

[skahde]

With a modern, well hardened emulsion (APX was very good at that) and/or devloped at lower temperature to tame the swelling of the emulsion from the high pH, even the grain isn't really bad and can look quite pleasing.

 

[Alan Johnson]

With respect to rodinal, to my mind, it tells a story, that not a single one of the big manufacturers made their own version even long after the patent expired.

Kodinol developer

This bottle is labelled "Prepared in England by Kodak Limited London" It is to be diluted with up to 40 parts water. (Like the old version of Rodinal ?) It came with the tin of fixer shown but may not be the same age.

www.photrio.com

I don't think Kodak ever released it in the US though.

 

[titrisol]

Unlinbkingeye is still up:

https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

 

[Lachlan Young]

devloped at lower temperature to tame the swelling of the emulsion from the high pH

This is not what is happening at all in this case. It can be safely dismissed as populist nonsense.

Without going on a deep dive into the science, the industry seems to have found that optimal sharpness appears to have (for common developer compositions) a bell curve distribution, peaking around a pH of 10, with the pH of D-76 and Rodinal sitting almost directly across from each other (hence Richard Henry's commentary about microdensitometry of Rodinal and D-76 delivering almost identical sharpness, but Rodinal having coarser granularity - and adds context to Henn's characterisation of dilute Microdol as a 'low pH Rodinal' as reported on here by a colleague of his (Ron Mowery)).

 

[skahde]

This is not what is happening at all in this case. It can be safely dismissed as populist nonsense.

You dismiss it as nonsense and then change topic from temperature to pH. I maybe mislead by former publications on the matter but I think, my own comment deserves better than that. I found HP5+ in Rodinal 1:50 to be visibly finer grained at 18 deg C than 22 deg C with contrast adjusted accordingly.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

You dismiss it as nonsense and then change topic from temperature to pH. I maybe mislead by former publications on the matter but I think, my own comment deserves better than that. I found HP5+ in Rodinal 1:50 to be visibly finer grained at 18 deg C than 22 deg C with contrast adjusted accordingly.

May I ask for the processing time (@18°C)?

 

[pentaxuser]

skahde, can I ask how you were able to be sure that grain had got smaller at 18C compared to 22C? I am not trying to say you are wrong when I ask this , I am just curious about the test and if possible can you say how much the difference in size was?

If you are right about grain size then I wonder if it gets smaller again at 16C Depending on the decrease in size then at what size of a print will be seen by the naked eye. If it is seen from enlarging 35mm negatives to a print size greater than 5x7 inches (13 x18 cms) then lower temperature developing may be worthwhile

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[skahde]

I never exclude the possibility to be completely on the wrong track. So for whatever it maybe worth: With respect to the times, I stopped my experiments with Rodinal long ago, I doubt I can find it in my records. An A to B comparison of graininess is not that difficult. In this case I took sensitometric strips that measured equal density and enlarged them side by side to about a sufficient factor on the same sheet of paper. Evaluation stays subjective, though, unless you would make a doubleblind evaluation and I don't have means and methods for quanitification. Good enough for my own use. Equal density is crucial, I guess that's where your question is aiming at.

 

[Lachlan Young]

smaller at 18C compared to 22C? I am not trying to say you are wrong when I ask this

The temp/ granularity issue has been extensively (and I mean extensively) researched across the major research labs using microdensitometry etc and no evidence found. If there was any of any note whatsoever, Agfa would have put clear warnings all over the bottles. Usually the cause is poor process controls on the part of the user who then thinks they've found something significant.

 

[titrisol]

I never exclude the possibility to be completely on the wrong track. So for whatever it maybe worth: With respect to the times, I stopped my experiments with Rodinal long ago, I doubt I can find it in my records. An A to B comparison of graininess is not that difficult. In this case I took sensitometric strips that measured equal density and enlarged them side by side to about a sufficient factor on the same sheet of paper. Evaluation stays subjective, though, unless you would make a doubleblind evaluation and I don't have means and methods for quanitification. Good enough for my own use. Equal density is crucial, I guess that's where your question is aiming at.

Theres been several good discussions here and elsewhere

Rodinal in the cold

It's that time of year again that temperatures drop on the northern bit of the globe. Chilly out, but not cold enough yet to put the heating on. I'm about to try stand development in Rodinal. But am not planning to keep checking and running back and forth refreshing a warm water bath to...

www.photrio.com

 

[john_s]

On the subject of Rodinal with phenidone and/or ascorbate, there were a number of posts a few years ago by people who mixed Rodinal with XTol. I don't remember if they got the best of both worlds or neither. It did "work" though.