Rodinal with Phenidone and/or Na-ascorbate

[Augustus Caesar]

Had anyone ever experimented mixing Rodinal with Phenidone and/ or Sodium Ascorbate? I think it may be interesting. If anybody tried this or know regarding this please share.

Rodinal uses highly active alkali. Phenidone is used with low activity formulas. Not a good idea.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

On the subject of Rodinal with phenidone and/or ascorbate, there were a number of posts a few years ago by people who mixed Rodinal with XTol. I don't remember if they got the best of both worlds or neither. It did "work" though.

There is a short article about mixing some XTOL in Rodinal by Sam Elkind on unblinkineye.com.
I used to mix 1g/1l Borax in the 1+50 working solution of Rodinal, right before processing, just in the hope to reduce some base fog, flowing Pat Gainers advise...
Only, I was never really in the possibility to measure it and I could hardly 'see' the difference, but I did it anyway as I thrusted Pat Gainer on that.

PS: I learned a lot from the writings by Pat Gainer, Sandy King and 'Photo Engineer' (on APUG), and my film processing improved considerable!

 

[Sidd]

Below I have inserted 2 images of the same scene, taken last Saturday afternoon under the same lighting conditions, on the same roll of Kodak XX 5222. The first was developed in Rodinal 1+50, using Patrick Gainer's calculation of Wolfen formula.

The Second one was developed in the same Rodinal 1+50, but with addition of 4 gms/Lt. of Na-Ascorbate.

Please judge whether there is any difference.

 

[john_s]

I prefer the second photo, because tree trunks in the background are better defined. But when making comparisons, making the development times produce the same contrast requires some trial-and-error. The second photo might have been able to be made from the first negative by printing at a higher contrast.

 

[alanrockwood]

Below I have inserted 2 images of the same scene, taken last Saturday afternoon under the same lighting conditions, on the same roll of Kodak XX 5222. The first was developed in Rodinal 1+50, using Patrick Gainer's calculation of Wolfen formula.

The Second one was developed in the same Rodinal 1+50, but with addition of 4 gms/Lt. of Na-Ascorbate.

Please judge whether there is any difference.

View attachment 375087 View attachment 375088

It looks to me like the second photo (Rodinal plus ascorbate) has a little more shadow detail and highlights that are less bright.

 

[Sidd]

I prefer the second photo, because tree trunks in the background are better defined. But when making comparisons, making the development times produce the same contrast requires some trial-and-error. The second photo might have been able to be made from the first negative by printing at a higher contrast.

I tried to adhere to Gainer's directions for using the developer, including timing.

 

[Sidd]

It looks to me like the second photo (Rodinal plus ascorbate) has a little more shadow detail and highlights that are less bright.

Yes, and consequently the second image is less punchy. Doesn't the first image show more "Rodinal look"?

 

[Philippe-Georges]

I tend to prefer the first version, although neither of these are my cup of tea.
To my very personal insight, both lack nearly open whites and deep blacks.
If that kind of print would come out of the developer in my darkroom, I would not keep it.
But again this is a very, very, personal opinion!

Below you see a scan of a print (done by a professional photo engraving service) from my book 'De Stilte Der Stenen' on Megaliths (2000).
It was shot on AGFAPAN 400, developed in plain Rodinal 1+50 and printed on AGFA MCC III FB (24x24cm).
Only, the internet's low resolution doesn't show the full range of details as can be seen printed in the book.

Hondsrug, Drenthe, the Netherlands; Hasselblad SWC/M and Yellow-Green filter.

 

[Sidd]

Definitely, lowering resolution is an important issue. The full resolution images, as I viewed in my monitor shows better.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Why are old negs so good?

I've never found the grain to be huge with a combo of EFKE and Rodinal, even in 35mm. Here is a test of EFKE 25 Adox film test Here is a portrait on that combo EFKE 100 in Rodinal on 35mm film *debunking the myth that Rodinal gives large grain* Mark That shot does not debunk the myth...

www.photrio.com

Gainer speculated that adding ascorbate would reduce the grain whilst keeping the "good" properties of Rodinal.
Grain difference might be visible on a crop from a scanner approaching 4000 dpi true, but not from the two pics posted.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Rodinal uses highly active alkali. Phenidone is used with low activity formulas. Not a good idea.

No, there's lots of ways Phenidones can be used optimally, it just depends on the speed/ grain/ sharpness/ contrast etc outcomes that are demanded. It's just that a Hydroxide buffer is largely not as good as carbonate for maximal qualitative outcomes outwith highly specific uses - and never was, but carbonate could potentially damage poorly hardened emulsions in the now distant past.

 

[titrisol]

Yes, and consequently the second image is less punchy. Doesn't the first image show more "Rodinal look"?

You have a lot more information on the 2nd image
You can manipulate the digital to match the contrast on the 1st

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Yes, and consequently the second image is less punchy. Doesn't the first image show more "Rodinal look"?

Define "Rodinal Look" (once and for all).

 

[skahde]

The contrast of the examples in #28 isn't adjusted to the same level and I guess it also isn't in the negative. Way to go, before one could start drawing conclusions.

 

[eli griggs]

A question I have is, can rodinal be one of two different developers in a two part developing process, that does not combine the developers, and who has tried this and what have they've learned?

 

[koraks]

can rodinal be one of two different developers in a two part developing process, that does not combine the developers

I don't see any reason why not. Whether it's useful - well, try it out and find out!
One consideration I'd keep in mind is carry-over from the first to the second developer if no rinse is used in-between. Then again, these effects may be negligible to begin with.

 

[oxcanary]

I wonder what would happen if one tried a two bath with different dilutions of Rodinal. Got many choices here 1.25, 1.50, 1.100, 1.300. Possibly more.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I wonder what would happen if one tried a two bath with different dilutions of Rodinal. Got many choices here 1.25, 1.50, 1.100, 1.300. Possibly more.

Rodinal at 1:25 is pretty potent. I don't think you would want to keep it in your first bath very long at all. Most two-bath developers have very little to almost no development in the first bath. Rodinal 1:25 would have a lot in the first bath.

 

[Sidd]

Rodinal at 1:25 is pretty potent. I don't think you would want to keep it in your first bath very long at all. Most two-bath developers have very little to almost no development in the first bath. Rodinal 1:25 would have a lot in the first bath.

For a proper 2 bath Rodinal should we not have to prepare the first bath in such a way that in itself doesn't start the development process? That is, we have to mix only just enough NaOH so as to convert the p-aminophenol into the sodium salt of aminophenol, but the pH should be low enough so that the development process doesn't start. Is it possible?

 

[Milpool]

If you wanted a “true” (no development in first bath) two-bath Rodinal essentially you’d have p-aminophenol (either as the free base or HCl salt) and sulfite in the first solution, NaOH second solution. It would take some experimentation to find the right mix for the first solution.

For a proper 2 bath Rodinal should we not have to prepare the first bath in such a way that in itself doesn't start the development process? That is, we have to mix only just enough NaOH so as to convert the p-aminophenol into the sodium salt of aminophenol, but the pH should be low enough so that the development process doesn't start. Is it possible?

 

[alanrockwood]

If you wanted a “true” (no development in first bath) two-bath Rodinal essentially you’d have p-aminophenol (either as the free base or HCl salt) and sulfite in the first solution, NaOH second solution. It would take some experimentation to find the right mix for the first solution.

Yes, I agree with the chemistry in that post with one possible caution. You probably want the paramino phenol to become heavily loaded into the film during the first bath. I don't know if the acid form or the neutral form would be loaded most heavily into the film, and this would depend on the pH of the first bath.

 

[john_s]

What would be the aim of 2-bath Rodinal?

 

[Sidd]

Yes, I agree with the chemistry in that post with one possible caution. You probably want the paramino phenol to become heavily loaded into the film during the first bath. I don't know if the acid form or the neutral form would be loaded most heavily into the film, and this would depend on the pH of the first bath.

I asked one my friends, a chemistry person, what will be the pH of Na-aminophenolate + Na-sulphite solution without any excess NaOH, he told me that it would be around 8.5. Now, I found an old post here by Alan Johnson that he has tried one p-aminophenol developer with pH 8.6. So, it seems that making a proper 2 bath Rodinal is not possible.

I wonder what would happen if one tried a two bath with different dilutions of Rodinal. Got many choices here 1.25, 1.50, 1.100, 1.300. Possibly more.

Other ways round may be tried, if necessary.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Ever tried Paracetamol?
PA-Rodinal, but I don't recall where and from whom I got it...

PS: this dates from 2006, a few years later I left Rodinal behind me...

 

[Alan Johnson]

It would be possible to make a copy of Thornton's 2 bath ,replacing the metol by p-aminophenol, which is about half as active as metol so the negatives would probably come out thin. If acid is added to PaRodinal [danger, heat] a precipitate forms, this is probably p-aminophenol base so one could start with paracetamol/tylenol and make PaRodinal first with a view to making p-aminophenol base from it.

Maybe p-aminophenol base would dissolve in sodium sulfite and maybe the part B would need to be more alkaline than metaborate.

IDK if such a brew would provide any advantage over Thornton's. Metol [methyaminophenol sulfate] is used in preference to p-aminophenol in nearly all developers except Rodinal.