Rodinal Newbee Question - Highlight control

Tom Stanworth · Oct 3, 2009

I have not used much rodinal alone (I have mixed with Xtol) and I want to get more control of highlights with this developer. I am enjoying the grain I am getting (why I am using it for certain things) so thats not an issue.

I do not want to use semi stand as I do not want the effects this technique introduces.

Right now I am developing with 1+50 and agitating 3 times every 60 seconds and I am wondering whether I will get a bit more highlight control by going to 1+100 or whether I should stick to 1+50 drop the agitation to 3 inversions every two minutes. I am inclined to try 1+100 instead as I do not want any nasties with reduced agitation, or indeed over exaggerated acutance that will show up badly on larger enlargements - I know from use of pyrocat HD that while semi stand might look good on a 2x enlargement it does not to my eye on a 20x16 from 35mm (grain itself is no issue).

Will using 1+100 and modest 3 inversions per minute agitation outlined help tone down hot highlights compared to 1+50? How can I expect it to affect film speed.

I have to say Rodinal has a wonderful look with Foma 100... Not sure everything, sure, but looks beautiful when I want a crisp, hard look. V good where there is no bright sun, but I am looking to control it better when the sun is out full force.

Ian Grant · Oct 3, 2009

Agfa never recommended 1+100. I only used Rodinal at 1+50 when the contrast was high, it was my N-2 strength.

Most of the time I used it 3+100 and this gave negatives with a very good tonal range for my way of working. When I needed to increase contrast I used 1+25 N+2. It was very common for photographers to use dilution rather than time to control contrast with Rodinal, in fact Agfa recommended that way of working as far back as the early 1900's although I only discovered that a month or so ago.

Ian

Larry.Manuel · Oct 3, 2009

I thought one was aiming for developer exhaustion at the highlights to tone them down. To me, that implies reduced agitation. When I began using Rodinal [1+50], I agitated as you do [3x/minute], and the contrast was very high. Too high. Now, I use Rodinal at 1+100 and agitate once each three minutes, after 3x in the first minute. This for 135 and 120 film.

I've read that many people use a yellow filter in scorching sun, with a lower exposure index, and pull [way] back on developing time.

Side note: I found Kodak 5231 [Plus-X movie film] to be very easy to expose in bright sun. It is intended to be a moderate-contrast film.

brian steinberger · Oct 3, 2009

Tom, I've been experimenting with Rodinal over the past year and went through a similar process as you. I stuck with the 1:50 dilution but reduced agitation to once every other minute. This is after a two minute pre-soak and agitation for the entire first minute. This works wonderfully for hazy sunlight and overcast light. I still haven't figured out blaring sunshine yet, as I use Xtol for those situations, though I would like to try Rodinal. When I do try I might just keep the 1:50 dilution and try reducing time, keeping agitation every other minute. If that doesn't work, then I'll go to 1:100.

Anscojohn · Oct 3, 2009

but I am looking to control it better when the sun is out full force.[/QUOTE]
********
In my notebook I have a photocopy of the instructions printed on a Rodinal box. You can use this info as a starter. These data are sufficiently old that they include Verichrome Pan.

For old style FP 4 and Plus-X:
Quote On: For bright sunlight and Highest Contrast Light, EI 80, Dil 1:100, 10.5 min @ 20 C.

For Tri-X and HP 4, Bright light, High Contrast Light: EI 250 1:85, 14 min, 20 C.

Quote off.
*******
Since Rodinal is so compensating at such dilutions, I would suggest controlling contrast with dilution only for most consistent results.

Ian Grant · Oct 3, 2009

Just checking, Agfa Europe's data sheets were different to Agfa America in their suggested dilutions etc. Peter Goldfiels had a bit about this in his Goldfinger Craftbook for Creative Photography (available in the PDF section of the Silverprint website).

I tried higher dilutions but found the compensating effects far to much and caused a loss of good tonality. The different recommendations are most likely due to the softer quality of light usually found in the UK and most of Northern Europe.

Ian

Tom Stanworth · Oct 3, 2009

to be honest the results are already all I would need for average lighting (perfect for the UK and soft sunshine) and I would use my first experiment time for expansion. I think I could use my current time OK for some reasonably strongly lit situation without too much trouble but want to cool it off a touch. I am thinking of sticking with 1:50 for now with my current time minus a 5-10% and reducing to only one inversion/swish per minute and see what happens. Might just take the edge off. If this is not enough, I will try 1:75 perhaps with one agitation per minute and a time maybe 15% longer than the 1:50 time I am using now. Sound sensible?

nworth · Oct 3, 2009

I've found that agitation is a very individual thing. Two people using the same routine do not get the same results. That said, your routine may be a bit much. Try two inversions every 30 seconds, and see if it works. Then adjust from there.

reellis67 · Oct 3, 2009

Tom Stanworth said:
but I am looking to control it better when the sun is out full force.

I live in Florida - the sun is always in full force here - and I find that in order to control the highlights and still have good shadow detail it takes a combination of exposure and development. I've outlined my procedure here. I use FP4+ and Rodinal 1:100 with 30 seconds initial agitation and 5 secs each minute and I regularly get very easily printed negatives using a #2 or #2.5 filter on MGIV FB. Very little needed in the way of darkroom calisthenics.

What ever you change you decide to make, but sure to a) change only one thing at a time, and b) record what you did for each test so that you can go back later and reproduce the results if you decide that they would be good for what you are working on.

- Randy

Anscojohn · Oct 3, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Just checking, Agfa Europe's data sheets were different to Agfa America in their suggested dilutions etc. Peter Goldfiels had a bit about this in his Goldfinger Craftbook for Creative Photography (available in the PDF section of the Silverprint website).

I tried higher dilutions but found the compensating effects far to much and caused a loss of good tonality. The different recommendations are most likely due to the softer quality of light usually found in the UK and most of Northern Europe.

Ian

*******
I am wondering about different Rodinal, as well. IIRC, the quote I included was copied from the cardboard packaging of a Rodinal that said "Made in USA." I wrote Agfa once about Rodinal being removed from the U.S.A. market and the answer kind of waffled, but I am pretty certain the answer said that, indeed, it was manufactured in the U.S.A. for a time..

brian steinberger · Oct 3, 2009

Tom Stanworth said:
to be honest the results are already all I would need for average lighting (perfect for the UK and soft sunshine) and I would use my first experiment time for expansion. I think I could use my current time OK for some reasonably strongly lit situation without too much trouble but want to cool it off a touch. I am thinking of sticking with 1:50 for now with my current time minus a 5-10% and reducing to only one inversion/swish per minute and see what happens. Might just take the edge off. If this is not enough, I will try 1:75 perhaps with one agitation per minute and a time maybe 15% longer than the 1:50 time I am using now. Sound sensible?

Tom, definitely report back with your results. I'm curious as to what you find out.

Usagi · Oct 3, 2009

Wirelessly posted (Samsung 2700: SAMSUNG-B2700/XBIB2 SHP/VPP/R5 NetFront/3.4 SMM-MMS/1.2.0 profile/MIDP-2.0 configuration/CLDC-1.1)

The tonality issues with dilutions beyond 1:100 raises a question: what to do in case of constant (motorized) agitation?

I have found that 1:100 works well with adox pan 25 sheet film, but developing is just too fast. 4 minutes will give normal contrast, so there is not much room for going N-1 and N-2 without diluting to 1:150 or 1:200.

I have to use 24'C temperature, cannot go belove that.

Perhaps rodinal just is not right choice?

Shawn Dougherty · Oct 3, 2009

I've found (with 4x5 sheet film in a slosher tray) developing at 1:100 for N with 30 seconds initial agitation and then 5 seconds every minute gives excellent results with a 5 stop scene. This seems consistent with what Randy has found as well. I have worked out a time with the following films: FP4+ - 18minutes and HP5+ - 14minutes. Both at 70 degrees. I altered dilution to 1:75 for N+ and 1:150 for N-. At rate both at half box speed.

I have since worked out a minimal agitation procedure with Rodinal 5:900 and TMY2 which I am now using in all formats. I feel I should complete some more work before I go into greater detail about this process.

P C Headland · Oct 3, 2009

My standard with Rodinal is 1+100 (at 20C), and I only ever use 1+50 when in a Paterson Orbital, which uses very little solution (although I prefer to use PC-TEA with the Orbital).

I tend to use Rodinal for Efke 25, 100, and Acros. I do five inversions in 15 seconds at the start of each of the first three minutes, then one slow inversion every 3 minutes. I've never had a problem with highlights blocking up, even in harsh New Zealand light. I always shoot at box speed with these films, and shadow detail is good.

At least with Rodinal, contrast can be controlled by agitation and dilution. If you don't want to change dilution, cut down the agitation.

Mark Antony · Oct 4, 2009

I think agitation is the key with Rodinal. In bright sunlight I often use 1:100 dilution (5mls solution in 500 water) with agitation for initial 30 seconds and then one inversion every 2mins thereafter.
In very extreme brightness cases I'll lessen the agitation even more for instance HP5 I process 1:100 for 20mins agitation first 30 seconds then tap the tank, come back after 5 mins for a gentle swoosh and again at 10 and 15 mins.
I have found with any more agitation than that grain starts to become a problem especially with say HP5 or Neopan 400 I think the secret is not just low dilution but also less agitation when faced with extreme contrast.
Extremely bright mid day sun with Hp5 film with the above modus.

AlanC · Oct 4, 2009

In the UK in bright sun I use 35mm and 120 HP5+ rated at 200, with a yellow filter. Typical exposure is f8 at 125th. I develop in Rodinal 1 + 50 as folows. 4 initial inversions then 1 inversion every 5 minutes, for 25 minutes. This not only controls the highlights but also boosts the shadows. Negatives print on grades 2 to 3.
In 35mm I have seen no edge effects, even on big enlargements, and get very nice tones. After maybe 50 films developed like this I have seen no uneven development. I have even started developing 5 x 4 film the same, in a Paterson orbital processor, and have had no uneven development even though the film is horizontal throughout development.
I got the recommendation to develop like this from D F Cardwell, here on Apug.

Alan Clark

brian steinberger · Oct 4, 2009

Mark Antony said:
I think agitation is the key with Rodinal. In bright sunlight I often use 1:100 dilution (5mls solution in 500 water) with agitation for initial 30 seconds and then one inversion every 2mins thereafter.
In very extreme brightness cases I'll lessen the agitation even more for instance HP5 I process 1:100 for 20mins agitation first 30 seconds then tap the tank, come back after 5 mins for a gentle swoosh and again at 10 and 15 mins.
I have found with any more agitation than that grain starts to become a problem especially with say HP5 or Neopan 400 I think the secret is not just low dilution but also less agitation when faced with extreme contrast.
Extremely bright mid day sun with Hp5 film with the above modus.

Mark,

What are your times for Neopan 400 in bright sun at 1:100?

martinsmith99 · Oct 5, 2009

I only shoot 35mm & I'd be interested in hearing the times for Neopan & HP5 with Rodinal @ 1:100. I'm using my 1st roll of Neopan now. Half the roll was bright sunshine, half not.

I hear also that you have to use at least 5ml of developer.

Mark Antony · Oct 5, 2009

brian steinberger said:
Mark,

What are your times for Neopan 400 in bright sun at 1:100?

Actually I use the same base time as HP5 of about 20 mins with the same agitation. I think its harder with 35mm as you can have many different types of light on one roll, where 120 gets shot in a single session.
If the light is very contrasty and I have a subject with lots of detail in the shadows I'll knock back the EI to around 250.

I think the secret is what works for you and depends on what your final medium is (wet print/scan/screen), experimentation being the key, but less agitation is more when using Rodinal in bright sunlight.

Tom Stanworth · Oct 5, 2009

I tried 1:60 (maths was easy) for about 10% longer than the 1:50 time but with agitation only inversion per minute to cool things off. The results look great, but as I am unfamiliar with printing rodinal only negs it will be interesting to see what they look like. Tones look pretty good, but typical of other test rolls I have done in rodinal. The highlights seem reasonably well under control and the images have plenty of bite. But the proof of the pudding will be in the printing...

dancqu · Oct 5, 2009

Very Dilute

martinsmith99 said:
I hear also that you have to use at least 5ml of developer.

Less than that is used. Those familiar may fill you in.
I've read of less than three milliliters in solution
volumes running about 500ml.

By and large I believe producers of developer suggest
minimums very much more than actually required.
The reason may be their suggested short
development times.

I regularly use developers and fixers very dilute one-shot:
D-23 at 1:7, a Dektol equivalent at 1:6, and a rapid film
fixer as dilute as 1:32.

What ever your dilution be sure you've enough of the
chemistry to do the job. The more dilute the more
time and/or agitation. Dan

Tom Stanworth · Oct 5, 2009

another reason for high minimums would be to ensure you are OK if you shoot rolls of high key scenes with lots of density on the neg. If you shoot white horses in the snow you might need more developer than the average person and certainly more than someone shooting black cats by night

reellis67 · Oct 5, 2009

martinsmith99 said:
I hear also that you have to use at least 5ml of developer.

I hear that figure a lot, but I never use that much - 1:100 with a single 120 spool and 400ml of fluid is how all of my 120 is developed (4ml of developer), unless I use stand development in which case I'm down to 2ml of developer in the can. Before that I used to develop 35mm with 3.5ml of developer (350ml in the can with a single loaded reel). If there is a 5ml minimum, my eyes are not good enough to detect the effects of using too little in my own negatives or prints. Obviously there is some minimum, but 5ml sounds a cautious estimate, at least in my own personal experience...

- Randy

brian steinberger · Oct 5, 2009

Today I shot some Neopan 400 (120) in bright sunlight (EI 400) and developed in Rodinal 1:100 70 degrees for 18 min. agitation first min. then two inversions every 2 min. Negatives look beautiful. From looking at them a little they might have benefited from EI 320 or even 250 next time. Being an Xtol user as well, I don't except speed loss easily. Knowing this coming in, I added 2.5 grams of sodium sulfite to the Rodinal. This seemed to help shadow detail a little bit. I'm still looking into ways to increase speed of Rodinal without compromising sharpness.

Tom Stanworth · Oct 6, 2009

brian steinberger said:
I'm still looking into ways to increase speed of Rodinal without compromising sharpness.

Mix it with Xtol. Basically the same speed as Xtol with sharper grain/more bite, more granular. I mix 1:100 rodinal into the 1+3 xtol. Works nicely for D100 and Neopan 400 for certain scenes.

Rodinal Newbee Question - Highlight control

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