Rodinal Minimal?

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

So I read somewhere that you need 5ml per 35mm / 120 roll or 8x10 sheet to develop it. I am now down to 2.5ml per film in a 1+200 dilution doing stand development. Full shadow detail, full highlight detail, great midtone contrast and local contrast. I even get the famous fabulous gorgeous grain...

Question is: How much is enough, for real?

I intend to find out, as it makes film developing extremely economical, but if anybody cares to share knowledge they already have, I'm all ears...

- Thomas

Shawn Dougherty · Sep 30, 2008

Thomas,
I've been using 5ml Rodinal in 500ml of water per roll of both 35mm and now 120 for standard development. With 35mm I used 2.5ml in 500ml for n- development with great success. Haven't tried it in 120 yet. It's so easy and the results are so nice I haven't bothered to mix any Pyrocat for some time....

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

That confirms my findings, Shawn. I usually develop three rolls at once, with 1500ml water and 7.5ml Rodinal concentrate. And I just let it sit for an hour with 90 second initial agitation. 70 degrees. Underexposed, overexposed - they all come out good enough!
- Thomas

dancqu · Sep 30, 2008

Glad to see you all including the volumes involved
as well the dilutions. So often dilutions are mentioned
without any other information. Dilutions alone mean little.
Your's is yet another proof that many trade good chemistry
for the sake of speed. Dan

Steve Smith · Sep 30, 2008

If you are doing stand development, most of the developer is just making up the space between the film and the tank for most of the time anyway!

I have always wondered about those claimed minimum amounts and I am interested in seeing how dilute you can go.

Steve.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

Exactly, those numbers are important. I've seen Agfapan APX 25 successfully developed in Rodinal 1+300, but I don't know the full volume per film involved. Needless to say I have no APX25 to play with, but Plus-X has responded very nicely to different treatments.
I will try 1+300 at 500ml per roll one of these days, and I will keep this thread in mind and post the results.

I have attached a neg scan from the 1+200 stuff. It's Plus-X Pan, rated at box speed. Got a natural boost in the high mid tones and highlights from the stand development, since lighting was a bit flat.

- Thomas

dancqu said:
Glad to see you all including the volumes involved
as well the dilutions. So often dilutions are mentioned
without any other information. Dilutions alone mean little.
Your's is yet another proof that many trade good chemistry
for the sake of speed. Dan

reellis67 · Sep 30, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I am now down to 2.5ml per film in a 1+200 dilution doing stand development. Full shadow detail, full highlight detail, great midtone contrast and local contrast. I even get the famous fabulous gorgeous grain...

Yep, I've used that same volume/dilution many times with roll film (1 roll) and gotten similar results. I'm not sure how low you can go, but I regularly get down to 6ml dev./600ml water developing 5-10 4x5 sheets in a tray with great results.

- Randy

EDIT: Sorry, that's with constant agitation on those 4x5 numbers...

nsouto · Sep 30, 2008

Looks fabulous, Thomas!

If you don't mind me asking: how do you keep the temp at 70 for an hour?
Jobo or similar?

Here I'd have a problem keeping it at that: too hot at the moment...

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

Good question about temperature... My darkroom is heated to about 70*F. It's close enough that it doesn't matter that much. It never gets really hot in there, as it's in my basement with stone walls, so it keeps pretty cold in the summer even. I can see how heat could be a problem.
If you are so inclined, I imagine you could make up a time/temp compensation chart.

- Thomas

Mark Antony · Sep 30, 2008

Thomas I use Rodinal as my standard dev, with only occasional Microphen use for extreme pushing.
I too have found that you can ignore the Agfa recommendations, I use 5 mls in 500ml for developing my 120 Pan F 1:100 for 18 mins.
Nice contrast and tone.
When I'm bored one day (chance will be a fine thing) I'll try 1:200 (2.5ml) in 500ml and see if that makes any difference.
mark

dpurdy · Sep 30, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
. Got a natural boost in the high mid tones and highlights from the stand development, since lighting was a bit flat.

- Thomas

I guess I am confused. Stand development gives a boost in the highlights? Since the lighting was flat you did stand development to boost constrast?

I would think the logic of stand development would be that the developer worked far longer on the low tones and reduced contrast or gave a boost to the low tones relative to the highlight tones.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

The developer exhausts with a speed proportional to the density in the negative. If the density is a little lower, it will exhaust slower.

I guess the way I like to put it is that it evens out exposure errors. I'm not very good with a meter. It's a problem I have. The stand development gives a boost to micro contrast and shadow details, but I should perhaps word it to a statement of the stand development boosting definition in the negative. It just seems to give the image a higher impact due to the improved local contrast.

I think 'boost' is a vague term that I should stop using.

- Thomas

Shawn Dougherty · Sep 30, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The developer exhausts with a speed proportional to the density in the negative. If the density is a little lower, it will exhaust slower.

I guess the way I like to put it is that it evens out exposure errors. The stand development gives a boost to micro contrast and shadow details, but I should perhaps word it to a statement of the stand development boosting definition in the negative. It just seems to give the image a higher impact due to the improved local contrast.

- Thomas

Very much my experience...

Bigpaul · Sep 30, 2008

A very interesting discussion! I use Rodinal almost exclusively, and just wanted to throw the issue of grain into the discussion? Using APX100 (35mm), I've often stand developed one film using 3ml Rodinal to 600ml water @68F for 90 minutes. I love the extra "sharpness" this seems to give, but have sometimes found that, contrary to expectations, contrast is increased? Also, grain is definitely more pronounced at only 10" x 8" enlargement (viz a viz my more normal Rodinal 6ml to 300ml water regime, 8.5 to 11 minutes depending on EI of the APX100)...........this can, of course, be either an advantage or disadvantage depending on the subject matter!

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

Paul, I think I agree with you that the grain can become more pronounced with stand development. But for me that's good. I have been shooting Tri-X and developed in Pyrocat for some time, and with Plus-X developed like this in Rodinal I get about comparable grain in an 11x14 enlargement (9x9 image area), maybe slightly less.
I like grain, so for me it's perfect. But I also find that my negatives look sharper than with normal development, so it's a win-win for me.

May not suit everybody, but my wallet likes me for only spending about 5 cents of developer per roll. The water used is more expensive!

- Thomas

coriana6jp · Sep 30, 2008

I have been doing this for a couple of years now. Using between 1:150 and 1:200, and the results have been great. Most of my work with this method has been done with Acros and Pan F in 120mm. The results have been almost perfect every time. I have been recently experimenting with dilution 1:300; about 1.5ml in 500mm of water. The results look promising, but I havent had a chance to print any of those negatives yet, but my test scans look very good.

Hope it helps.

Gary

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 30, 2008

That's great, Gary! Exactly the kind of information we need on this thread. Thank you!

So, at 1:300 - 1.5ml for 500ml of water, that's about 30% of the recommended 5ml per film. Fascinating. How long are your development times?

Thanks,

- Thomas

coriana6jp · Oct 1, 2008

Generally, I have not been paying too close attention to the time. I figure that the developer exhausts itself at somepoint. Usually I have been playing with times between 45 and 90 minutes at 68 or so degrees. And using identical rolls of film, I have not noticed any real differences between results. I havent printed the negs yet, but I did scan a couple at they were identical to my crappy eyes.

Cheers.

Gary

George Collier · Oct 1, 2008

About keeping the temperature - Richmond is hot in the summer too. I keep a tray of ice in a graduate nearby. The developer tank (stainless steel) sits in a tray (or bucket if need be) of water deep enough to come up to the lid, but below it. I set up a water bath for the tank (and the stop water and fix, in graduates) at the temperature of the process. Over time I add a cube of ice when needed and stir it around in the water bath. It will stay at 70 as long as I need it to. Just be sure not to disturb the tank during development if stand or semi-stand.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 1, 2008

Thanks for the reply, Gary. So no problems with fog when it's in for that long? An hour is about the limit for me with the 1+200 solution. Longer and I see slight fogging, and densities also seem to increase if I go longer than an hour. Perhaps it's a water/temperature thing.

George, good tips on the temperature management. I realize now that it takes a lot more attention to do stand development if the house is hot in the summer.

- Thomas

dancqu · Oct 1, 2008

Speaking of Minimal

This thread has me wondering just how far
I might push minimal fixer. As some are aware
I use fixer one-shot. I've made a practice of
establishing a base time of 10 minutes to
clear; 500ml solution.

I've found 15ml of rapid concentrate enough
for a few films but have never extended times
as I've thought 10 minutes long enough to wait.
All this talk of stand development has picked my
curiosity.

One-shot fixing is somewhat analogous to washing,
a fresh fix at start and film loaded with undeveloped
silver salts. At start salts are removed quickly as the
fixer loads; the clearing of salts slows. Dan

Paul Verizzo · Oct 1, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
George, good tips on the temperature management. I realize now that it takes a lot more attention to do stand development if the house is hot in the summer.

- Thomas

Since Rodinal is a one component developer, it shouldn't make any difference what the temperature is. Obviously it will develop faster with higher temps. Might be easier to change time than water bath things. I hate doing that, up and down, up and down.

George Collier · Oct 3, 2008

Well, if you keep the ice added (or hot water in the winter) when you see a drift of a half degree or so, it isn't really an up and down situation. Also, an important reason for keeping the temperature the same is for grain quality. The thought is that from presoak through wash, changes in temperature promote expansion and contraction of the emulsion, which encourages clumping of grain, into larger clumps and so a less uniform pattern. At least so goes the advice I've always gotten.

Paul Verizzo · Oct 3, 2008

George Collier said:
Well, if you keep the ice added (or hot water in the winter) when you see a drift of a half degree or so, it isn't really an up and down situation. Also, an important reason for keeping the temperature the same is for grain quality. The thought is that from presoak through wash, changes in temperature promote expansion and contraction of the emulsion, which encourages clumping of grain, into larger clumps and so a less uniform pattern. At least so goes the advice I've always gotten.

Apparently you are better at it than me! I find it very hard to gauge just the right amount of ice or hot water to not under or over shoot the target. And to do this for an hour? No way.

Find the time for the ambient temp. Easy-peasey.

George Collier · Oct 3, 2008

Thomas - a few details if you don't mind:
Do you presoak and how long?
How long is your initial agitation, and how "violent"?
I ask because I have tried many combinations of stand, semi-stand, etc with Rodinal and 120 Tri-x and have never been able to avoid surge effects on the edges, and not all frames, no consistency except that it is always at the top of the reel. I even tried doing a roll in an old 4x5 Kodak hard rubber tank just letting it (film on the reel) sit in the bottom in total darkness to remove the ss tank from the process.
Do you ever have surge effects?

Rodinal Minimal?

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