Rodinal & FP4+

thesooth · Jan 3, 2024

Hey folks,

recently I started to play with low shutter speeds (1/4, 1/8), with my to-go bw film (HP5+) 400 iso is too much and I'm overexposing photos, so I'm thinking of starting using FP4 for these types of photos.

My goal is to achieve something similar to Trent Parke's style, using a slow shutter speed and natural light.
Trent mentioned that he is using Rodinal for developing negatives, but I've never used this developer, for HP5 I'm sticking with HC-110 and like the results.

Could anybody please point out which dilution I need to use to get similar results to Trent Parke? I mean, grainy and contrasty

JensH · Jan 3, 2024

Hi,

first, FP4Plus should be a very good choice. Start at EI 50 and don't forget
Schwartzschild compensation at longer times.

Looking at Trent Parke's more "dreamly" photos a starting point could be
Rodinal 1:25, 7.5min @18°C in a Jobo 1520, three inversions every minute- that's what I used for some of my photos with Duto soft filter...

Some of Trent Parke's work is more like street night life under harsh light, our street photographers can tell better if a compensating developer like Pyrocat or PMK would work better here...

Anyway FP4Plus works great with the different stiles of dev.

Best
Jens

Alex Benjamin · Jan 3, 2024

Stick with HP5+. Grainier than FP4+.

Use a deep yellow (#15) or orange (#21) filter. That will block your shadows, increase your contrast, and filter factor will need you to shoot 1.3 (yellow) to 2 (orange) stops lower, allowing the slower speeds you're looking for.

Rodinal 1:25 dilution. Experiment with agitation to reach the contrast level you want.

Thomas71 · Jan 4, 2024

Fp4: my favourite film. Good in Rodinal 1+50 13-15 min; visible but well defined grain. Excellent in XTOL (or xtol-clone) 1+1 for 10 min; full speed; very sharp and less grain than in Rodinal.
HP5: avoid Rodinal because its grain structure is irregular and can be annoying, at least in 35mm. Much better in XTOL
Delta400 could be a good compromise between speed (faster than FP4) and grain (visible but more regular than HP5).

awty · Jan 4, 2024

I believe I read Trent used fp4 @200 iso and developed for the highlight detail, wasn't big on shadow detail. Used a m6 camera, so 35mm film.
The rest he did in the darkroom. You won't get that look with out very good editing skills.

npl · Jan 8, 2024

Alex Benjamin said:
Stick with HP5+. Grainier than FP4+.

Use a deep yellow (#15) or orange (#21) filter. That will block your shadows, increase your contrast, and filter factor will need you to shoot 1.3 (yellow) to 2 (orange) stops lower, allowing the slower speeds you're looking for.

Rodinal 1:25 dilution. Experiment with agitation to reach the contrast level you want.

+1 for sticking to hp5+, but OP could also use ND filters (ND4, ND8..) to have slower shutter speed.

It's not easy to visualise how a picture will look like using color filter unless there are very clear blues and reds in the scene (for yellow, orange and red) and increased contrast is not always the outcome, it all depend on the colors in the composition. With a neutral density filter we can use the regular techniques of metering the shadows and putting them where we want them and use developement times to handle the highlights.

grain elevator · Jan 8, 2024

Does this mean you want motion blur? I was curious and don't see much of that in the pictures by Trent Parke on the Magnum website, could you post examples of what you're aiming for?

madNbad · Jan 8, 2024

This is Tri-X @ ISO 200 deeloped in a 50:1 dilution of Rodinal for 10 minutes at 20c. To get the best results from Rodinal, it'll cost you one stop.
Leica M4-2, Voigtlander 28 2.8 Color-Skopar V2, Tri-X

thesooth · Jan 14, 2024

Hey folks,

thank you so much everyone for your input, I was away from laptop and didn't have time to reply to everyone, but I really appreciate your help

awty said:
I believe I read Trent used fp4 @200 iso and developed for the highlight detail, wasn't big on shadow detail. Used a m6 camera, so 35mm film.
The rest he did in the darkroom. You won't get that look with out very good editing skills.

you're right, I also want to try to push FP4 to 200, so it will be 1:25 dilution for 13 mins, according to massive dev chart.

grain elevator said:
Does this mean you want motion blur? I was curious and don't see much of that in the pictures by Trent Parke on the Magnum website, could you post examples of what you're aiming for?

sure,

{Moderator note: embedded images likely to be subject to copyright removed}

hope this will be enough

madNbad said:
This is Tri-X @ ISO 200 deeloped in a 50:1 dilution of Rodinal for 10 minutes at 20c. To get the best results from Rodinal, it'll cost you one stop.
Leica M4-2, Voigtlander 28 2.8 Color-Skopar V2, Tri-X

This is exactly what I read, so if FP4+ is 125 ISO film, do I need to shoot it at 60 iso? to get "best results"? and what If I want to push it to 200 ISO, that mean that I need to use 100 ISO and develop for 200?

Alex Benjamin · Jan 14, 2024

thesooth said:
so if FP4+ is 125 ISO film, do I need to shoot it at 60 iso?

No. Lower ISO will mean less contrast, which is not what you want.

thesooth said:
what If I want to push it to 200 ISO, that mean that I need to use 100 ISO and develop for 200?

No. You meter (or set your camera meter) at 200 ISO and develop for 200 ISO.

Ilford's time for FP4+ @ 200 in Rodinal 1+25 is 13 minutes. Start there, then experiment. If too grainy, try Rodinal at 1+50 (starting Ilford time is 20 minutes). If you want more contrast, try 5 seconds agitation every 30 seconds, or add development time at 10% increments. If still not quite satisfied, try rating it at 400 (no law against it). Etc., etc., possibilities are endless, but, most importantly, remember that YOU WON'T GET WHAT YOU WANT ON THE FIRST TRY! .

(Nor the second, nor third, nor fourth... But, ideally, closer each time. )

Also remember, as someone else has pointed out, that getting the negative right is only half the work. The final result will come in the darkroom (or Lightroom, if you're just scanning), where more experimentation will be needed. In other words, you can't look at another photographer's work, say "I want to do this", and just rely on a film+developer combo.

retina_restoration · Jan 14, 2024

thesooth said:
Hey folks,
sure,
hope this will be enough

This is exactly what I read, so if FP4+ is 125 ISO film, do I need to shoot it at 60 iso? to get "best results"? and what If I want to push it to 200 ISO, that mean that I need to use 100 ISO and develop for 200?

Please do not post copies of another photographer's work on the forum (I see you've taken copies and uploaded them to the forum's server). It's a violation of copyright and Magnum can come after you for infringement. The right thing to do is post a link to the work you want people to see.

thesooth · Jan 14, 2024

Alex Benjamin said:
No. Lower ISO will mean less contrast, which is not what you want.

No. You meter (or set your camera meter) at 200 ISO and develop for 200 ISO.

Ilford's time for FP4+ @ 200 in Rodinal 1+25 is 13 minutes. Start there, then experiment. If too grainy, try Rodinal at 1+50 (starting Ilford time is 20 minutes). If you want more contrast, try 5 seconds agitation every 30 seconds, or add development time at 10% increments. If still not quite satisfied, try rating it at 400 (no law against it). Etc., etc., possibilities are endless, but, most importantly, remember that YOU WON'T GET WHAT YOU WANT ON THE FIRST TRY! .

(Nor the second, nor third, nor fourth... But, ideally, closer each time. )

Also remember, as someone else has pointed out, that getting the negative right is only half the work. The final result will come in the darkroom (or Lightroom, if you're just scanning), where more experimentation will be needed. In other words, you can't look at another photographer's work, say "I want to do this", and just rely on a film+developer combo.

thank you, will try soon

retina_restoration said:
Please do not post copies of another photographer's work on the forum (I see you've taken copies and uploaded them to the forum's server). It's a violation of copyright and Magnum can come after you for infringement. The right thing to do is post a link to the work you want people to see.

If you take a look closely at these image paths, you will see that they're not uploaded to the forum.

MattKing · Jan 14, 2024

thesooth said:
If you take a look closely at these image paths, you will see that they're not uploaded to the forum.

No, but the images are embedded in your post.
We will delete the images. Feel free to post links.

retina_restoration · Jan 14, 2024

thesooth said:
thank you, will try soon

If you take a look closely at these image paths, you will see that they're not uploaded to the forum.

Actually, I copied the image URLs and they were on Photrio servers.

thesooth · Jan 14, 2024

well, it wasn't on photrio servers, it used photrio forum function to load the image:

Code:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/proxy.php?image=

the same way as photo embedded above.

The photo itself is on a different server, and this code is just used to load the image...

so the script just loaded the image trough photrio...

Augustus Caesar · Jan 14, 2024

thesooth said:
Hey folks,

thank you so much everyone for your input, I was away from laptop and didn't have time to reply to everyone, but I really appreciate your help

you're right, I also want to try to push FP4 to 200, so it will be 1:25 dilution for 13 mins, according to massive dev chart.

sure,

hope this will be enough

This is exactly what I read, so if FP4+ is 125 ISO film, do I need to shoot it at 60 iso? to get "best results"? and what If I want to push it to 200 ISO, that mean that I need to use 100 ISO and develop for 200?

thesooth said:
Hey folks,

recently I started to play with low shutter speeds (1/4, 1/8), with my to-go bw film (HP5+) 400 iso is too much and I'm overexposing photos, so I'm thinking of starting using FP4 for these types of photos.

My goal is to achieve something similar to Trent Parke's style, using a slow shutter speed and natural light.
Trent mentioned that he is using Rodinal for developing negatives, but I've never used this developer, for HP5 I'm sticking with HC-110 and like the results.

Could anybody please point out which dilution I need to use to get similar results to Trent Parke? I mean, grainy and contrasty

Why not strive for your own technique? In any event, you can copy that style with almost any film and developer.

What About Bob · Jan 15, 2024

I have used Rodinal with FP4 and have gotten great results with it, both for regular and stand development.

I have thrown in the Ilford chart in case you go slower with your shutter speeds. https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Reciprocity-Failure-Compensation.pdf

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 15, 2024

I've always preferred the look of HP5 over FP4. Rate it at 200. Put on an ND2 filter. Increase ISO to 100. Bob's your uncle!

thesooth · Jan 15, 2024

Thanks, everyone again, I haven't tried FP4 yet, so it will be a good chance to try it.

What About Bob · Jan 15, 2024

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've always preferred the look of HP5 over FP4. Rate it at 200. Put on an ND2 filter. Increase ISO to 100. Bob's your uncle!

What about him?

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 15, 2024

What About Bob said:
What about him?

Uncle Bob!

M Carter · Jan 18, 2024

Alex Benjamin said:
Rodinal 1+25 is 13 minutes. Start there, then experiment. If too grainy, try Rodinal at 1+50 (starting Ilford time is 20 minutes). If you want more contrast, try 5 seconds agitation every 30 seconds, or add development time at 10% increments.

There's no law that states Rodinal has to be used at 1+25 or 1+50. If you do tests at 1+30, 40, 50 and 60, you'll see a very linear change in highlight density if temp/time/agitation are the same. As long as one is personalizing development, you can use dilution as well. IMO, it's more "predictable" than time when testing.

In all of my Rodinal years, I find there's a difference in the curve between 1+25 and 1+50; lower mids get pushed down at stronger dilutions, and open up as you get weaker - so you can also get more control of shadow rendering as you change dilutions. Rodinal's grain can be eased off a bit by using very gentle agitation (like swirls vs. inversions) and extending time a bit to compensate. But I give at least a half stop more exposure, regardless of dilution.

Alex Benjamin · Jan 21, 2024

M Carter said:
There's no law that states Rodinal has to be used at 1+25 or 1+50.

I agree. In fact, for FP4+ — only film in develop in Rodinal — I only use1+75.

That said, OP clearly stated that he has never used Rodinal. Much simpler for him to get the "feel" of the developer using dilutions for which there is plenty of data, including development times, than going all over the place blindly trying random dilutions on which he has no informations. He'll have plenty of time experimenting later in order to personalize his process.

M Carter said:
Rodinal's grain can be eased off a bit by using very gentle agitation

There's a lack of consensus about the impact of the type of agitation — vigorous vs gentle — on grain with Rodinal, including some strongly worded debate about it on this forum.

albireo · Jan 22, 2024

Alex Benjamin said:
That said, OP clearly stated that he has never used Rodinal. Much simpler for him to get the "fell" of the developer using dilutions for which there is plenty of data, including development times, than going all over the place blindly trying random dilutions on which he has no informations. He'll have plenty of time experimenting later in order to personalize his process.

+1 wise advice.

thesooth · Feb 6, 2024

So, I finally developed my first roll of FP4 with Rodinal 1+25, and it came out super overcooked.
The negative looks very high contrast, but the scanner saved me - I was able to recover details.

Even with the overcooking, I must admit, I really like this combo of FP4 and Rodinal.

Help me figure out what I did wrong:

The film was shot at 200 ISO. I used 20 ml for 500 ml of water for 13 minutes. I always used a stick to agitate - so I twisted the stick (with normal speed, not too fast and not too slow) for the first 30 seconds, and then I agitated for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. Usually, with HP5 and HC-110, I agitate every minute for 10 seconds, but I decided to save myself a little time.

The issue for sure could be that I agitated too much, but I never thought that it would affect it so much.

Maybe I developed it for too long and need to reduce the time?

I did some research and realized that since I'm mostly shooting high-contrast scenes, I want to use a 1+50 or even 1+100 dilution. Could anybody tell me, if I use these dilutions, how long I'll need to agitate? Or maybe with a 1+100 dilution, it makes sense to use stand development? In this case, I'll need to agitate (or use the stick) for the first minute, and then leave the tank for an hour.

Rodinal & FP4+

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