Rodinal failure

jim appleyard · Feb 11, 2016

I've been using Rodinal for going on 30 years and the concentrate in the bottle has lasted (except for the last 10ml) until I used it up, about 1 year. I use this for slow 35 & 120 films and for 120 FP-4.

Now my latest bottle is about 1/2 empty and my negs are about 1 stop thin. Same camera & dev procedure. I ran another roll thru Pyrocat HD (another fine dev) and the negs are fine.

Has anyone else noticed this? I'm using Adox APH09. I've noticed that Freestyle also sells another version of Rodinal. What, if any, is the difference? Will it last longer than APH09?

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 11, 2016

Adox had to rename Rodinal to Adonal for a while, a liquid concentrate that is the same as the Agfa Rodinal of later years. Most of the other formulations out there are more akin to way earlier versions of Rodinal and, if I understand it correctly, they don't last like Adonal (or the actual Rodinal).

This is the real stuff: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12054-Adox-Rodinal-Film-Developer-500ml

jim appleyard said:
I've been using Rodinal for going on 30 years and the concentrate in the bottle has lasted (except for the last 10ml) until I used it up, about 1 year. I use this for slow 35 & 120 films and for 120 FP-4.

Now my latest bottle is about 1/2 empty and my negs are about 1 stop thin. Same camera & dev procedure. I ran another roll thru Pyrocat HD (another fine dev) and the negs are fine.

Has anyone else noticed this? I'm using Adox APH09. I've noticed that Freestyle also sells another version of Rodinal. What, if any, is the difference? Will it last longer than APH09?

Ronald Moravec · Feb 11, 2016

Rodinal has moved from one manufacturer to another. Supposedly the same, but who knows. Maybe the bean counters forced use of cheaper plastic bottles or the plastic was out of spec. The nice glass ones are long gone.

My last test was new Rodinal decanted to a glass bottle with really good cap. It worked from 1998 to 2008. This was a test and only opened for tests. Different bottles were for real work.

I would decant to glass bottles with good caps when first purchased and keep them full.

Anon Ymous · Feb 12, 2016

APH09 is not the kind of Rodinal made by Agfa, but what used to be the Eastern German (Orwo/Calbe) kind, based on an older formula. It doesn't have the legendary keeping properties of Agfa's Rodinal.

mooseontheloose · Feb 12, 2016

jim appleyard said:
I've been using Rodinal for going on 30 years and the concentrate in the bottle has lasted (except for the last 10ml) until I used it up, about 1 year. I use this for slow 35 & 120 films and for 120 FP-4.

Now my latest bottle is about 1/2 empty and my negs are about 1 stop thin. Same camera & dev procedure. I ran another roll thru Pyrocat HD (another fine dev) and the negs are fine.

Has anyone else noticed this? I'm using Adox APH09. I've noticed that Freestyle also sells another version of Rodinal. What, if any, is the difference? Will it last longer than APH09?

Jim, I've had the same problem with R09 that I've bought. I've been developing Acros in Rodinal for years, and just recently ran out of the original bottle(s) that I had. Going over to R09 has been a real shock - negs look nothing like what I had before. Will maybe do some testing this weekend to work it out.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

APH09 is not Rodinal as we know it today, it was the original Rodinal formula and is much darker when fresh than our present day Rpdinal/RO9 and does not keep like Rodinal, It used to be packed by Calbe, the original makers, in 1 litre bottles and I tried it out, 2 bottles, a few years ago, and while it developed the films beautifully. maybe slightly better than Rodinal/RO9 it went to chrystals very quickly and before I used half the bottle ti was more crystals than liquiad, and the films were very faint,I was wasting more than I used, whether the APH09 that adox sells today is made by Calbe for them I don't know. but as far as today's rodinal is concerned I ise th R09 one shot version made for Rollei as the Adox version is hard to find over here, I only know of one retailer in the UK of the adox version, but I used my last bottle down to empty, over a year, and the last 10ml developed the fomapan as well as the first 10ml when the bottle was fresh, so keeping properties seem as good as ever
Richard

mooseontheloose · Feb 12, 2016

Richard, I don't doubt you at all, I've heard and read many good things about R09 which is why I was surprised. Maybe it's working exactly as it should, and my old stock of Rodinal is what's leading me down the wrong path...in any event, the only way to figure things out is more testing.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 12, 2016

Hi Rachelle!
I hope you are doing well in Japan.

Hi Richard!
Now, let me see if I understand what R09 both of you are talking about.
Is this the one marked "R09 One Shot"? http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Rodinal-R09-500-ml/product/20858/AFRO15/
I use this one made by Foma or made for them: http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Fomadon-R09-Film-Developer-Film-Developer-250ml/product/56091/V70011/
Maybe because I buy the 250ml bottles, I have never had a problem.
I use it at 1+100 stand development. That 250ml bottle lasts me for 83 films and that is less than 6 months.
Even though some crystals are formed at the bottom over these 6 months, Fomadon R09 was as good and as dark as ever.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

Hi Ricardo, the Rodinal I use is the R09/one shot as supplied by Maco under the Rollei label, available in 500ml bottles, which lasts me around twelve months, I use it for Foma films at 1/50. The Foma version is is the same thing, made by the same maker for foma, just packed in smaller bottles, I have always used it down to the last drop, the keeping powers are legendery,it simply never, ever goes off, it can go black, thick as treacle, and still work as well as a newly opened bottle. I have used dregs from a bottle 4 or 5 years old and no problems. The developer Jim is referring to is, I believe, a much older version of Rodinal, APH09 was a pre war formulation, or even earlier, and while it is diluted and used to the same timing it does not store so well, after around 6 to 7 months it loses power due to the amount of crystals that form, I have seen a 1litre bottle so thick with crystals that when you pour it out it is more crystal than solution, and pretty much un usable, It was mad by Calbe, and supplied exclusively to Adox, and still is only supplied by Adox,It is the only version of this developer that I have used that I wasted more then I used, but the resulting negatives on Foma film were very sharp indeed, lovely.
Rachelle there are various RO9 Formulations around, I use R09/One shot, supplied under the Rollei Brand.
Richard

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
Richard, I don't doubt you at all, I've heard and read many good things about R09 which is why I was surprised. Maybe it's working exactly as it should, and my old stock of Rodinal is what's leading me down the wrong path...in any event, the only way to figure things out is more testing.

I follow the timings from a Agfa sheet that I have pinned up on my darkroom wall, but I find that the RO9 today gives me the same results as from the time that Rodinal was supplied in glass bottles. indeed, I recently found a glass bottle 1/2 full in the back of my chemical cuboard and used it to develop some films, and it was as good as new, but the results from my RO9 was as good, it should work as well and keep as long, at least in my experiance with it
Richard

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 12, 2016

I couldn't find that Rollei version, apart from references to it.
Thanks!

James1 · Feb 12, 2016

I seem to remember seeing that the APH09 vs Rodinal issue, with the former not lasting as long, was potentially a question at least in part of the plastic bottles they are sold in (as Ronald says).

I am currently using a bottle of Orwo R09, which is the pre-1945 forumulation of Rodinal. Made in around 1986, it is in a dark glass bottle with a rubber stopper and is used at the older-style dilutions (1+20, 1+40 etc).

The liquid is treacle-black, but works perfectly, and I use pulished Rodinal times as a starting point.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
I couldn't find that Rollei version, apart from references to it.
Thanks!

Process Supplies only sell the Foma version, both Silverprint and Firstcall sell the Rollei version, Firstcall sell under their own brand in the Softpak version, but it is still the Rollei chemical made by the Same factory,
Richard

Gerald C Koch · Feb 12, 2016

Here we go again. Will the real Rodinal please stand up. The only authentic formula is that used at the Agfa Wolfen plant. We know this because of the provenance. The formula was seized after WWII as war reparations. Every other formula is only conjecture.

Rodinal like developers are a pale lavender color when made from purified paraminophenol. I know because I have made them using the formula in the Morgan and Morgan Darkroom Data Guide. Agfa used to take this extra step but the developers made today are from commercial grade pap and are of various shades of brown.

When Agfa switched from glass bottles they used a plastic composite bottle which had a very low permeability to oxygen. Sadly modern manufactures have not done so. Therefore always decant the developer into full glass bottles for better storage.

As far as arguing which version is better they will all produce results that the user cannot differentiate between if used as the manufacturer directs. Despite all the hoopla to the contrary the similarities outweigh the differences.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 12, 2016

R.Gould said:
Process Supplies only sell the Foma version, both Silverprint and Firstcall sell the Rollei version, Firstcall sell under their own brand in the Softpak version, but it is still the Rollei chemical made by the Same factory,
Richard

Thanks!
I know PS only sells the Foma version. That's where I get mine from.
The Silverprint and Firstcall versions I knew under the Compard name and normally marketed as "R09 one Shot". They are all the same.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
Thanks!
I know PS only sells the Foma version. That's where I get mine from.
The Silverprint and Firstcall versions I knew under the Compard name and normally marketed as "R09 one Shot". They are all the same.

They sre all made by Compard, The cheapest is the softpack from firstcall, if you place an order from them for other stuff then add the RO9/one shot
Richard

jim appleyard · Feb 12, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
always decant the developer into full glass bottles for better storage.
.

So I would safe to continue to order APH09 from Freestyle and then put into glass upon arrival?

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 12, 2016

jim appleyard said:
So I would safe to continue to order APH09 from Freestyle and then put into glass upon arrival?

Why not order ADOX Rodinal instead? It's the real thing.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

jim appleyard said:
So I would safe to continue to order APH09 from Freestyle and then put into glass upon arrival?

Yo would surely be a lot better of ordering the Rpdinal/adonal /RO9 one shot, much more reliable, and certain to keep, I wold not like to bet on APH09 keeping in glass bottles, I can't see Adox, the suppliers, using cheap plastic for their bottles, I decanted the last lot I bought, some time ago, and it did not make a jot of difference, I still threw half at least away
Richard

Gerald C Koch · Feb 12, 2016

The only thing that we know is that Rodinal was said to be the 9th recipe in the Agfa Rezept book. Hence the name R09. However even this is subject to some dispute. The only recipe that we have for certain is the Wolfen one. Even this one is incomplete for we do not know the chemical name of the antifog that Agfa used.

miha · Feb 12, 2016

R.Gould said:
They sre all made by Compard,

Not true, they are made by Tetenal (as is Adox Rodinal), Compard is doing the bottling etc.

R.Gould · Feb 12, 2016

miha said:
Not true, they are made by Tetenal (as is Adox Rodinal), Compard is doing the bottling etc.

I stand corrected, but Firstcall used to state that their softpack chemistry was made by Compard, however I believe that the adox product and the RO9 is made to the same formula, not surprised as Tetenal make the majority of the photo chemistry in Europe, I believe that they also make at least some of the Ilford chemistry
Richard

jim appleyard · Feb 12, 2016

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Why not order ADOX Rodinal instead? It's the real thing.

That was my next question, but I forgot to type it in! Yes, I ould do that.

jim appleyard · Feb 12, 2016

This is confusing! I also went to Formulary's site, but they don't list their version anymore. I could try R09, but if that isn't better, I'd hate to have to invest more time & trials into a new dev.

miha · Feb 12, 2016

R.Gould said:
however I believe that the adox product and the RO9 is made to the same formula, not surprised as Tetenal make the majority of the photo chemistry in Europe,
Richard

Not necessary Richard, MSDS are slightly different. And there is another paraminophenol developer available: Paranol S, a blast from the past: Dead Link Removed
Tetenal reintroduced this developer a couple of years ago.

Rodinal failure

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