• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Rodinal and tray development

Amour - Paris

A
Amour - Paris

  • 0
  • 0
  • 44
Bend in the river

H
Bend in the river

  • 2
  • 0
  • 63

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
203,235
Messages
2,851,853
Members
101,740
Latest member
Andrewford
Recent bookmarks
0

Usagi

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
362
Location
Turku, Finla
Format
Multi Format
I haven't had reliable results when developing sheet films in Rodinal 1+50 or 1+100 using tray method. Same applies to the tank development (dip'n'dunk).

One advice that was given was that Rodinal is not robust enough for such development.
Is there anything real facts behind that? What makes dip'n'dunk or tray development so different compared to drum developing and spiral + tank used in roll films?

With D-76 I haven't had any problems so there is some difference but I just cannot believe that developer could limit developing methods...
 
I've developed single 5x7 sheets with minimal agitation in trays at very high dilution (1:200), and they have turned out without technical problems. I don't know why a less diluted solution would not work perfectly in a tray. What sort of problems are you having?
 
Hi, I've developed up to 4 4x5 sheets in tray using R09 (the new name of Rodinal) at 1:100 whithout any problem. I think it's important the amount of developer, at least 600 cc / 1 liter and diluting it immediately before use.


Massimo.
 
Uneven development and occasional streaking. These are visible mostly on photographs of subjects with large sky.

The result is similar that can occur with insufficient agitation.
So the agitation can be one reason.
I agitate by shuffling stack of 6 sheets withing 30 seconds. If there's less than 6 sheets, then I keep same pace but let the shuffled sheets wait until full 30 seconds is reached.
For one sheet it would give about 5 sec for agitation and then 25 sec for waiting.
 
Not sure what the solution is for shuffling a stack that takes less than 30 sec, but I would not let a stack sit still in a tray situation at all. It would probably be better to keep them moving and shorten the time a bit if you feel they are moving too fast.
I have never had uneven development with tray method.
 
I use Rodinal at 1:100 (for N development) with my 4x5 sheet film. 6 sheets at a time in a slosher tray with agitation for the first minute. For the remaining time I gently pick up two corners of the tray at the top of each minute and one corner at the bottom of each minute. I've never had streaking or unevenness....
 
Yes, It's highly possible that straking is caused by insufficient agitation.
For four sheets, I could slow down pace, perhaps for three sheets (move one every 10 seconds).

But how to handle two or one sheet? I have always found out development times by using 5-6 sheets so the development times would be different when there's only couple of sheets (or one) to agitate.

Some uses 'dummy sheets' to get enough sheets to shuffle - but I'd rather not.

When developing one or two sheets, the pace have to be faster to get each sheet moved at least once per 10 seconds.
That alters contrast and I have to compensate it somehow.

Perhaps it's accurate enough if I do simple developing test (using step wedge) and compare the result to the results I have got with slower agitation. Then I got factor that I can apply to my known and tested development times to get proper contrast.
 
I'd suggest a pre soak for all the sheets if using the shuffling method, shuffling in the pre soak bath just as you will during the rest of the process.

I'd also suggest using a larger tray than that which physically fits the film. This will give you plenty of developer to work with, plenty of room to shuffle, and will minimize the effects of any non-random flow patterns that develop in the tray. For instance, I'd use 5x7 trays for 4x5 film, and 8x10 trays for 5x7 film. If I shot 8x10, I'd use an 11x14 tray. (For 2x3 sheet film, and when I had a 3x4 camera, I'd use 4x5 trays, though it took me a while to track a set down, and they eventually ended up in my hands by chance. I never actually found a set for sale.)

This is a continuous agitation technique. I've had ruined film by letting it sit just a short amount of time. Be especially attentive to continuous agitation for the first half of the development time.

Because it is a different agitation technique than you use by doing one sheet at a time in a tray, you may find that you need to change your development times to get your intended contrast.

I try to vary the direction of the draining. I drain from opposite corners each time through the stack.

You can mark the first sheet submerged with a sharp blade on the edge (Making an extra notch near the notch code is one way to do it.), or by turning it 90 degrees from the rest of the stack. I slice a top corner or two on the first sheet, and also turn it 90 degrees.

Development time will be staggered with this method. I put in a new sheet every 30 seconds, and when it is time to stop the development, I pull out the first sheet after the normal developing time, the second after 30 additional seconds, and so on. Therefore, for each sheet beyond one, I increase the time I set on the timer by 30 seconds. For example, if the developing time is nine minutes, and I have four sheets, I set the timer to 10:30 (30 seconds additional for every sheet beyond the first). When nine minutes is up (clock hits 1:30), I take out the marked sheet, then the second sheet at 1:00, and so on. A slick way to do this to help avoid confusion is to rig two Gra-Lab timers together, so that the first timer hitting zero triggers the second timer to start counting. For example, with this method, the first timer would be set to 9 minutes, and the second to 1:30. When the first timer hits zero, you pull the first sheet, then pull the other sheets in order every 30 seconds on the other timer. This might be convenient for some, even though all it does is prevent you from having to subtract one time from another and remember the difference.

Because of the staggered stopping meaning that fingers will be going into and out of different solutions, and then repeating, I don't use a stop bath, to prevent contamination of the developer from my fingers. I use a tray of water, with a stream running into it if possible.

Make sure that the agitation is coming only from shuffling. IME, any agitation by rocking can easily scratch the emulsion (and can also turn the sheets, so you lose track of which is the first).

I have pretty much given up on the shuffle method personally. I was never able to get consistently scratch-free film, no matter how careful I was. However, by following the tips above, I was able to get nicely developed and even negatives.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Two sheets are the same as with more, you are still agitating by shuffling. the times do not change because each sheet, whether 2 or 6, are being moved once every 30 seconds.

My experience with Rodinal in particular is very different. I normally develop 6 sheets in 1500ml using my slosher tray. If I develop 3 sheets in the same amount of developer the result is a considerable increase in development. I have found the same with traditional tray processing and using 1 vs 2 reels in a two reel tank. Rodinal is quite sensitive to changes in film to developer ratio (even though the dilution is consistent).

All the best. Shawn
 
I'll have to defer to your information in that regard. I've only used Rodinal once, ten years ago. I don't even remember on what film. I know tray development extremely well, but not Rodinal.

Yeah, I ONLY found this with Rodinal. When I was using Pyrocat HD and experimenting with D-76 I would shuffle or slosher-tray(can one use that as a verb?) between 3 and 6 sheets and never noticed a real difference. So, it came as a surprise to me when i started using Rodinal. I wonder why that is?

Shawn
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have finetuned my shuffling and did some tests with single sheet, using Kodak's agitation style.

For now, I have stick in D-76 1+1 until I am confident enough to give rodinal a try.

The thing that bothers me is kind that the gradient of negative is a bit hard to predict - even after series of test strips.
If I develop 5 sheets at time and shuffle them continously, the result will be softer than developing 2 sheets and shuffling them continously.
Ofcourse, developing only one sheet by racking the tray gives a lot of more contrast and to my surprise with combination FP4+ and D-76 also the shape of curve is more "swept", long toe curve.

Feels a bit strange as there's lot of books that suggest shuffling method for development calibration in the way that the one film is removed from the stack when the development time for that is full and smaller stack is kept shuffling until next one is removed...
And the last one? Didn't found any source that covers that part.
 
I too have found rodinal to be more likely to incur uneven development compared to D-76 and HC-110. I use it in deep tanks tanks at 1+50, w/ sheet and roll film. I don't tray process. Daylight tanks weren't ever a problem, but the deep tanks are w/ rodinal.

What I think it is, and this is just a postulation, is that Rodinal begins developing very quickly and aggressively upon initial contact w/ film compared to other developers. It then settles into a more gradual development which can cont. to build density for a long time, more slowly. But b/c problems w/ uneven development mainly occur in the first 30 sec to min of development, Rodinal then becomes tricky. My guess. And just a guess.

So really try to make sure your first round of agitation is spot on.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom