Rodinal and Sodium Sulfite

[Anscojohn]

APUGS ALL,
I was brought up in the 1960s on the use of "sulfited" Rodinal as a film developer combination for medium and high speed films. I see nothing, these days, about using sodium sulfite to decrease grain whilst maintaining the over all sharpness of the developer.

Doubtless emulsions are finer grained than ever; and there is no doubt, in my mind, that Rodinal has probably changed in formulation over the years. So...., does anyone out there use sulfited Rodinal? I am getting back in to the darkroom after many years absent, and would appreciate your advice and experience.
Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia, USA

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

APUGS ALL,
I was brought up in the 1960s on the use of "sulfited" Rodinal as a film developer combination for medium and high speed films. I see nothing, these days, about using sodium sulfite to decrease grain whilst maintaining the over all sharpness of the developer.

Doubtless emulsions are finer grained than ever; and there is no doubt, in my mind, that Rodinal has probably changed in formulation over the years. So...., does anyone out there use sulfited Rodinal? I am getting back in to the darkroom after many years absent, and would appreciate your advice and experience.
Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia, USA

I have never liked the eroded/mushy look of the film grains/grain edges developed in sulfited Rodinal (or other sulfited developers).

I have always preferred the sharp, well defined grain/grain edges produced by diluted (unsulfited)Rodinal.

 

[Dennis Vandal]

Hi Anscojohn! I worked as a newspaper photographer in the early 80's and we often used sodium sulfite with Edwal FG-7 to kick Tri-x up to 3200 and 6400. Results were dicey depending heavily on accuracy of exposure and development. Never did it with Rodinal, tho.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Hi Anscojohn! I worked as a newspaper photographer in the early 80's and we often used sodium sulfite with Edwal FG-7 to kick Tri-x up to 3200 and 6400. Results were dicey depending heavily on accuracy of exposure and development. Never did it with Rodinal, tho.

Hey Dennis - I've never heard before of using Sulfited FG-7 (or Rodinal either) for pushing Tri-X. I tried Tri-X developed in sulfited FG-7 in the 1960's with available light basketball photos to see if it would produce finer grain - it didn't - just mushy grain. I stuck with Accufine for the Tri-X.

 

[gainer]

I didn't like sulfited Rodinal either. It made me want to clean my glasses that weren't dirty. 4 grams of sodium ascorbate per liter of 1+50 Rodinal gave more of what you're looking for. Mix a level teaspoon of ascorbic or erythorbic acid with a level 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in a small amount of water and add it to the diluted Rodinal after it quits fizzing. Use the same times you woulf use for Rodinal 1+25.

 

[Lee Shively]

Hi, Anscojohn.

I've been using sufite with Rodinal since the early 1970's, first with Tri-X and now with HP5+. In my opinion, the combination maintains great tonality and sharpness with less apparent grain. I've also used this combination with FP4+ and Pan F+ with good results. I've pushed HP5+ to EI 800 using sulfite and Rodinal 1:50 with very nice results. I see no reason why HP5+ can't be pushed to 1600 in Rodinal and sulfite.

When I worked for a daily paper, we used sulfite in Edwal FG7 and exposed Tri-X up to an EI of 1600. Sometimes that EI of 1600 was optimistic. Since we covered a lot of small-town football games in high school stadiums with available darkness, we found this was the best combination to get a little shadow detail. We didn't care about reducing grain in our pushed Tri-X, only getting a negative that didn't print as soot and whitewash. Sulfited FG7 did a good job at this.

Everyone has their own favorite developer/film combinations and all of them seem to work satisfactorily. I like the Rodinal and sulfite combination, especially with Tri-X and HP5+.

 

[gainer]

Hi Lee,
I guess that means you never tried Rodinal + C.

 

[Anscojohn]

Hello All,
The sulfited FG-7 was a workhorse for me for many years, but not for pushing. I used it the recomended 9% solution, with stock diluted1:31, for my normal EI, which was (is) usually about 1/2 ASA.

We used sulfite at about half that concentration--that is to say, at about the sulfite concentration of D-76 1:1, which many lab rats used for greater sharpness. Remember, stock D-76 is a 10% sulfite solution.
I have never seen mushy grain with Rodinal, no matter what--but then I never used it with high concentrations of sulfite. Moreover, that was with Rodinal before it disappeared from shelves in the USA, re-appeared made in USA, and then reappeared,made in Germany again. I would not wish to swear in court to it, because I have not used Rodinal for many years--but I think the later formulations were definitely different from the "old" stuff.
Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

 

[Ryuji]

Sulfite is not a panacea for grain or image quality. When used in a developer like D-76 and Xtol, sulfite is very effective in enhancing the image quality (overall enlargability) but this is not true when added to more vigorous developers like Rodinal. In my view addition of sulfite to Rodinal does not increase enlargeability of the negative. However, Rodinal tends to give lower speed, especially with 400-speed and faster films, and addition of 20g/L of sulfite seems to reverse some of the speed loss. Again, if you care about this, I think it's better to use some other developer, like XTOL 1+1, which give full speed and good negative quality.

Regarding the notion that sulfite makes grains mushy or fuzzy. This is not true. If you look at images developed in stock strength D-76, Xtol or DS-10 under a high quality microscope, you'll see a very crisp, sharp grains. I do see the same crisp grains when I enlarge the negative using a point source light and an enlarging lens set at an optimal condition. Some enlarging systems are not capable of this level of resolution and they may render finer grains fuzzy, but this is not because the developer makes grain fuzzy.

As a more drastic example, if you develop any film in D-19, which is a high sulfite developer, you'll get giant and crisp grain. You'll also reailze that D-19 gives no enhancement of accutance and the image doesn't look as sharp as ones you get with D-76.

Actual resolution of the image is not decreased by sulfite at all. What matters more, especially for those who make large prints is to decrease granularity and maintain a good level of accutance at the same time. Of course, adding sulfite to some existing developers is not a very effective solution here.

I also think that developer preferences depend hugely on enlargement factors typically used by the user. For example, I customarily make 10x, 12x, 18x or larger enlargements and developers like DS-10 are almost essential to me. But those who make 8x or smaller enlargements may not find grains a main factor and may prefer something different. Generally, negatives for smaller enlargements require more accutance enhancement to match the overall visual sharpness of the finished prints. We experience this in the digital world as well... you give just good amount of sharpening to the original image and make a smaller version for web presentation, and realize that you need a bit more sharpening. Same thing happens in the enlarger... or in the viewer's visual system, rather.

 

[dynachrome]

Sulfite Added To Rodinal

I don't think there is a big advantage to using Rodinal at any standard dilution with added sodium sulfite. Rodinal already contains a small amount of sodium sulfite and this is to preserve the product and not to affect the appearance of grain. I used Edwal FG-7 for many years. From what I have read the exact formula for FG-7 changed over time. It is a concentrated phenidone-hydroquinone developer. I found it excellent for thin emulsion slow speed films @ 1:15 diluted with plain water. Medium speed films could be developed either 1:15 with plain water or 1:15 with 9% sodium sulfite solution. Using sulfite did lower the appearance of grain. With 400 speed films the results were just too grainy with FG-7 @ 1:15 with plain water.

If you want to use a developer which has no sulfite when it is made or when it is used then you might consider PC-TEA. There are many threads on this make-it-yourself formula. It consists of phenidone, ascorbic acid (or isoascorbic acid) and triethanolamine. PC-TEA gives good sharpness and moderate grain and has excellent keeping qualities. It is also very inexpensive. I have plenty of Rodinal on hand but if I wanted something with less grain I would use undiluted Microphen or D-76 or Clayton F60 at 1:9. High solvent developers like Microdol-X/Perceptol can cause two problems when they are used undiluted. Speed is lost and grain edge can look less sharp. This grain edge softening would show up with traditional b&w films like HP5+, FP4+ and Plus-X and to a lesser extent with the current version of Tri-X. The more modern b&w films like TMX, ACROS and Delta 100 are so sharp and fine grained to begin with that they suffer very little from any kind of grain edge softening. My favorite developer for ACROS is undiluted Fuji Microfine. Some apuggers have offered the opinion that Microfine is similar to Microdol-X. I can't vouch for that but my results using Microfine with ACROS have been good. I also like to use TMX with Microphen. I know others like Rodinal with TMX and both can give nice but different looks.

Can you use Rodinal with added sulfite for different grain results? Yes you can. I prefer to use other developers instead.

 

[Ryuji]

I just re-edited a piece from my old website, with some new stuff added in, and made it available here:

http://silvergrain.org/wiki/Film_developer

This page covers variables associated with developer formulations. More practical recommendation is here:

http://silvergrain.org/wiki/Film_developer_recommendation

I have some more pieces that I didn't transfer from my old site that are waiting to be added back on, so more stuff will be added in next weeks.