Rodinal and R09. Similarities and differences

modafoto · Nov 2, 2005

Hi Apuggers

I was reading (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and started wondering about the differences between the old (R09) Rodinal and the new (Agfa's current Rodinal). I have only tried the current Agfa stuff, but in the future R09 might take over if the current Rodinal stops being made.

I want to hear how people think the two developers are different or similar. The chemical differences also interest me.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings Morten

Gerald Koch · Nov 2, 2005

I have both developers but have yet to make a comparison. Chemically they are very similar, The R09 being said to be closer to the original Rodinal formulation. Rodinal now contains potassium bromide and EDTA while the original and R09 do not. There may be additional chemicals not mentioned in the Agfa MSDS.

There is a rumor that A&O Gruppe, Neuss Germany, has purchased the rights to the Agfa chemicals. Whether this includes Rodinal and the other B&W products or only the commercial color processing chemicals is not known at present.

jandc · Nov 2, 2005

Gerald Koch said:
I have both developers but have yet to make a comparison. Chemically they are very similar, The R09 being said to be closer to the original Rodinal formulation. Rodinal now contains potassium bromide and EDTA while the original and R09 do not. There may be additional chemicals not mentioned in the Agfa MSDS.

There is a rumor that A&O Gruppe, Neuss Germany, has purchased the rights to the Agfa chemicals. Whether this includes Rodinal and the other B&W products or only the commercial color processing chemicals is not known at present.

Their interest is in servicing the mini labs. The factory buildings they bought had to do with the mini labs. It is unclear at this time if they have any interest in producing consumer B&W chemistry or if they even bought the rights to the B&W products.

A&O Gruppe is a IT service company and not a photo company.

jandc · Nov 2, 2005

modafoto said:
Hi Apuggers

I was reading (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and started wondering about the differences between the old (R09) Rodinal and the new (Agfa's current Rodinal). I have only tried the current Agfa stuff, but in the future R09 might take over if the current Rodinal stops being made.

I want to hear how people think the two developers are different or similar. The chemical differences also interest me.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings Morten

Using each developer at it's appropriate dilution and time I seriously doubt you could pick which negative was processed in which developer in a blind test. The similarities are greater than the differences.

Gerald Koch · Nov 2, 2005

jandc said:
It is unclear at this time if they have any interest in producing consumer B&W chemistry.

That was also my suspicion.

modafoto · Nov 3, 2005

jandc said:
Using each developer at it's appropriate dilution and time I seriously doubt you could pick which negative was processed in which developer in a blind test. The similarities are greater than the differences.

I got to give it a go someday. I better prepare for the day where I have to bury my last Rodinal bottle and reform the church to Church Of R09

Jon Butler · Nov 3, 2005

Shelf Life ?

I use a lot of Rodinal 25/30 films a week and are going to have to use
R09 when my stock is used up. (3 L) I have been told that R09 has got a poor shelf life compared to Rodinal.

JON

modafoto · Nov 3, 2005

JON@jb-ci said:
I have been told that R09 has got a poor shelf life compared to Rodinal.

But if the results are good I can live with a poorer shelf life (Rodinal has almost infinite shelf life, so even if R09 only has a shelf life of a year it is still great).

jandc · Nov 3, 2005

JON@jb-ci said:
I have been told that R09 has got a poor shelf life compared to Rodinal.

JON

R09 is Rodinal, the Rodinal that earned the reputation before WW-II of having amazing shelf life. The fact that there are differences between the Agfa trademarked version of Rodinal and the original pre war version is pretty much irrelevant from a photographic perspective. Both share the same qualities including shelf life.

I found a half used 250ml bottle of R09 that I had opened 3 years ago and forgotten about a few months ago and it worked just fine.

Christian Kolinski · Nov 3, 2005

JON@jb-ci said:
I have been told that R09 has got a poor shelf life compared to Rodinal.

Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal.

Christian

Keith Tapscott. · Nov 3, 2005

modafoto said:
Hi Apuggers

I was reading (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and started wondering about the differences between the old (R09) Rodinal and the new (Agfa's current Rodinal). I have only tried the current Agfa stuff, but in the future R09 might take over if the current Rodinal stops being made.

I want to hear how people think the two developers are different or similar. The chemical differences also interest me.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings Morten

I would suggest exposing two rolls of film and developing one in Agfa Rodinal using your regular dilution and time and the other in R-09 using the same dilution and time to see what differences you can detect. There may be slight differences in contrast and gradation which you could adjust for next time. It would be interesting to read the findings of an experienced user of a particular developer who compares the results to another which is claimed to be similar or the same.

modafoto · Nov 3, 2005

Christian Kolinski said:
Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal.

I have never seen a R09 bottle...what does it look like compared to a Rodinal bottle?

Fotohuis · Nov 3, 2005

I have never seen a R09 bottle...what does it look like compared to a Rodinal bottle?

Drink it.... and you know it.

Robert

Rodinal forever????

jandc · Nov 3, 2005

Keith Tapscott. said:
I would suggest exposing two rolls of film and developing one in Agfa Rodinal using your regular dilution and time and the other in R-09 using the same dilution and time to see what differences you can detect. There may be slight differences in contrast and gradation which you could adjust for next time. It would be interesting to read the findings of an experienced user of a particular developer who compares the results to another which is claimed to be similar or the same.

No, the dilutions and times are different than for Rodinal. You need to test at the recommended dilution and time for each developer. Obviously if you dilute R09 to the Rodinal dilution and time you will not get the same results. Just as if you dilute Rodinal at the R09 dilutions and times you will not get optimum results.

jandc · Nov 3, 2005

Christian Kolinski said:
Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal.

Christian

I just love the cryptic dramatic answers to simple questions. If you don't like R09 than don't buy it. But putting out this garbage is a disservice to everyone.

laz · Nov 3, 2005

jandc said:
I just love the cryptic dramatic answers to simple questions. If you don't like R09 than don't buy it. But putting out this garbage is a disservice to everyone.

Gee now you're being entirily too reasonable! Remove the cryptic dramatic answers and all the fun goes out of it! (of course I agree with your bottom line; if you like brussel sprouts eat them if not, don't!)
-Bob

modafoto · Nov 3, 2005

Fotohuis said:
Drink it.... and you know it.

That is the most weird answer to my question...too much coffee shopping?

jim appleyard · Nov 3, 2005

Christian Kolinski said:
Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal.

Christian

Could you possibly give us a few more details on this?

titrisol · Nov 3, 2005

Rodinal 1+25 = R09 1+?????
1+50 = 1+????
1+100 = 1+????

jandc said:
Using each developer at it's appropriate dilution and time I seriously doubt you could pick which negative was processed in which developer in a blind test. The similarities are greater than the differences.

Fotohuis · Nov 3, 2005

That is the most weird answer to my question...too much coffee shopping?

What should I say now? Put on your webcam and be happy! :rolleyes:

Yes, in Holland but not located in Amsterdam and far away from the nearest coffee shop.

127 · Nov 3, 2005

I suspect he just means that R09 (or F09 in the Foma version) comes in 250ml bottles. Standard dillution is 40+1, so thats more than enough to keep me going for a few months. They also do a 1ltr bottle (or at least you can order 1ltr at a time - maybe they just send you four little bottles).

I use R09 as my main dev, except when I want fine grain. Liked it a lot, though my experiences are pretty limited, and my methods pretty sloppy. Enlarging a 645 neg of HP5 to 10x8" gave grain just visible, but wasn't suitable for my needs for those shots (So I switched to A49 Atomol for that work). Efke 100 at similar enlargement has grain which is quite noticible, but very nice - I use that LOTS.

Ian

jandc · Nov 3, 2005

jim appleyard said:
Could you possibly give us a few more details on this?

This is the Adox version but the bottle is the same.

Lee L · Nov 3, 2005

Christian Kolinski said:
Well, if you compare the bottles Rodinal ships in and those R09 is, you may find a quick answer to why R09 won't last as long as Rodinal.

Christian

My 250 ml R09 from JandC came in a rectangular opaque brown #2 PE plastic bottle. It has a separate internal plastic stopper that folds back over the lip of the opening and then a standard plastic screw on cap over that. Looks like the 1 liter bottle in the shot from JandC, except smaller.

My 125 ml Rodinal came in a PE-PA plastic (no US recycling type number stamped on it) rectangular opaque white bottle. There is no separate stopper, but the screw on plastic cap has an internal rim designed to seal against the inside of the opening.

My 500 ml Rodinal came in a translucent rectangular #2 PE plastic bottle with the same lid type as the 125 ml Rodinal.

Maybe R09 bottles have changed, or it comes in different bottles in Germany and overseas.

The only differences in my bottles, the extra (and very tight) plastic stopper in the R09 bottle, and the translucent plastic on the 500ml Rodinal, would both argue for longer R09 shelf life.

Agfa has changed the bottle numerous times in the 30 years I've been using Rodinal. I haven't heard that this has changed shelf life.

So what's the quick answer? I'm a little slow (and long winded).

Lee

jandc · Nov 3, 2005

titrisol said:
Rodinal 1+25 = R09 1+?????
1+50 = 1+????
1+100 = 1+????

The standard dilutions don't exactly correlate. To be exact you would have to derive some fractional dilution. However I would compare Rodinal 1:25 to R09 1:40 which are standard dilutions that data is available for. I would use either at 1:100 but with the recommended times for each one.

We have data for our films here:

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=2

titrisol · Nov 3, 2005

Interesting, R09 is more concentrated according to that.

I still have 2 500ml bottles of Rodinal so it'll take me a while to order any more developer.

Rodinal and R09. Similarities and differences

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