Rodenstock Doppel Eurynar 1:6.8f 24cm Focusing Problem

[Mark Miller]

My latest Speed Graphic arrived and it is in good shape. The one problem is that I am unable to achieve a focused image on the ground glass. The Rodenstock Doppel Eurynar 1:6.8f 24cm lens is clean. I removed the lens board and looking through the lens I can achieve focus by moving closer to whatever i was focusing on and there was a decent focus in the far distance. However once placed on the camera I cannot get a focused image looking through the ground glass. Has anyone experienced that before? Any ideas on what the problem might be?

 

[John Wiegerink]

Are you getting enough bellows draw? The Graphics are a camera normally setup for something in the 135mm range so your lens is on the long side and would require the bellows to be extend roughly 240mm or so just to reach infinity. That also means that if you can't flip your infinity stop up on the camera and extend the bellows at least 240mm you will not have anything in focus, near or far. You should see your infinity stops on the focusing rail. It's been a few years since I owned one and my memory isn't the best at my age, but I think what I say is true. If it's not then somebody here will certainly correct me. If it's not what I say then some one has rearranged the elements in your lens, but that vintage lens would be hard to do that on. I still have the Rodenstock 165mm and it's a peach of a lens. Mine is uncoated and will flare if you are not careful, but it is still one sharp, fine lens.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Not to be a complete idiot, but have you managed to position the front standard in front of the bed stops?

 

[Ian Grant]

Not to be a complete idiot, but have you managed to position the front standard in front of the bed stops?

I agree with Dan, the front standard on that Anniversary Speed Graphic is sat on the rear rails, no way will that lens focus while there, bring it right out to at least half way along the front rails, then try again.

Ian

 

[Mark Miller]

I agree with Dan, the front standard on that Anniversary Speed Graphic is sat on the rear rails, no way will that lens focus while there, bring it right out to at least half way along the front rails, then try again.

Ian

hank you Ian for your responses/advice. I have to be honest, when I bid and won the camera on eBay, I was so excited about the Roddenstock lens that I didn't take note of the focal length.and how that would work with the camera. You reminded me about the adjustment of the rail. I measured approx. 9.4 inches (240mm) from the film plane and set the rail stop there. Problem solved. I have a sharp lens, albeit basically a telephoto. Kudos.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Resetting the bed stops is bad practice. It destroys the range finder's calibration.

What you should have done if your camera has a drop bed was drop the bed, pull the front standard off the inner bed rails, raise the bed, pull the standard out to the front of the outer bed and put it back on the outer bed rails.

 

[Mark Miller]

Are you getting enough bellows draw? The Graphics are a camera normally setup for something in the 135mm range so your lens is on the long side and would require the bellows to be extend roughly 240mm or so just to reach infinity. That also means that if you can't flip your infinity stop up on the camera and extend the bellows at least 240mm you will not have anything in focus, near or far. You should see your infinity stops on the focusing rail. It's been a few years since I owned one and my memory isn't the best at my age, but I think what I say is true. If it's not then somebody here will certainly correct me. If it's not what I say then some one has rearranged the elements in your lens, but that vintage lens would be hard to do that on. I still have the Rodenstock 165mm and it's a peach of a lens. Mine is uncoated and will flare if you are not careful, but it is still one sharp, fine lens.

Thank you John for your responses/advice. I have to be honest, when I bid and won the camera on eBay, I was so excited about the Roddenstock lens that I didn't take note of the focal length.and how that would work with the camera. You reminded me about the adjustment of the rail. I measured approx. 9.4 inches (240mm) from the film plane and set the rail stop there. Problem solved. I have a sharp lens, albeit basically a telephoto. Kudos.

 

[Mark Miller]

Resetting the bed stops is bad practice. It destroys the range finder's calibration.

What you should have done if your camera has a drop bed was drop the bed, pull the front standard off the inner bed rails, raise the bed, pull the standard out to the front of the outer bed and put it back on the outer bed rails.

Thank you Dan for your responses/advice. I have to be honest, when I bid and won the camera on eBay, I was so excited about the Roddenstock lens that I didn't take note of the focal length.and how that would work with the camera. You reminded me about the adjustment of the rail. I measured approx. 9.4 inches (240mm) from the film plane and set the rail stop there. Problem solved. I have a sharp lens, albeit basically a telephoto. Kudos.

 

[Mark Miller]

Thank you Dan for your responses/advice. I have to be honest, when I bid and won the camera on eBay, I was so excited about the Roddenstock lens that I didn't take note of the focal length.and how that would work with the camera. You reminded me about the adjustment of the rail. I measured approx. 9.4 inches (240mm) from the film plane and set the rail stop there. Problem solved. I have a sharp lens, albeit basically a telephoto. Kudos.

Hello Dan.
I looked for the ability to drop the front bed, unfortunately my Graflex does not have the drop bed feature. I will check again just to make sure. Thank you again for your advice.

 

[shutterfinger]

If and only if you want to rangefinder focus with this lens then set the rails so that the rangefinder shows an infinity target in focus. The infinity should be at least 5000 feet away, farther is better.
With the focus lock set loosen the infinity stops and position the lens so that the same infinity target is razor sharp on the ground glass with the front standard locked and square to the film plane.
Although the Kalart was designed to work up to 162mm focal length lens you might be able to squeeze a little more out of it.
Kalart Adjustment: http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/kalart-adjustment.html
Anniversary Speed instruction manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/Anniversary.pdf
Anniversary Speed service manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/AnniversaryService1.pdf

I know, you saw the lens on that camera in the listing and became lens blind to everything else.

Enjoy your camera!

 

[John Wiegerink]

Thank you John for your responses/advice. I have to be honest, when I bid and won the camera on eBay, I was so excited about the Roddenstock lens that I didn't take note of the focal length.and how that would work with the camera. You reminded me about the adjustment of the rail. I measured approx. 9.4 inches (240mm) from the film plane and set the rail stop there. Problem solved. I have a sharp lens, albeit basically a telephoto. Kudos.
View attachment 181900

Glad to be of service. If you want to do a real close-up shot with it you can rack your rails all the way to the rear and flip your stops up, pull your lens panel out to near the end of the rail and lock. Then it allows the bellow to be extended much further out thus allowing for additional magnification. Your lens is a little long for macro type work, but should get you plenty close for flowers and such. You have a very fine lens and if it's a good example, which many of those were, you will be rewarded with some fine photographs. Please post some when you finally get it up and running.

 

[John Wiegerink]

If and only if you want to rangefinder focus with this lens then set the rails so that the rangefinder shows an infinity target in focus. The infinity should be at least 5000 feet away, farther is better.
With the focus lock set loosen the infinity stops and position the lens so that the same infinity target is razor sharp on the ground glass with the front standard locked and square to the film plane.
Although the Kalart was designed to work up to 162mm focal length lens you might be able to squeeze a little more out of it.
Kalart Adjustment: http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/kalart-adjustment.html
Anniversary Speed instruction manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/Anniversary.pdf
Anniversary Speed service manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/AnniversaryService1.pdf

I know, you saw the lens on that camera in the listing and became lens blind to everything else.

Enjoy your camera!

I've adjusted several Kalart rangefinders for different focal length lenses and it's a PITA, but if you fellow direction to the letter it can be done by almost anyone. Still, it's a pain.

 

[Mark Miller]

Glad to be of service. If you want to do a real close-up shot with it you can rack your rails all the way to the rear and flip your stops up, pull your lens panel out to near the end of the rail and lock. Then it allows the bellow to be extended much further out thus allowing for additional magnification. Your lens is a little long for macro type work, but should get you plenty close for flowers and such. You have a very fine lens and if it's a good example, which many of those were, you will be rewarded with some fine photographs. Please post some when you finally get it up and running.

Hello John,

Thank you again. I will re-rack my rails to the rear and check that out as well. I appreciate your advice. I plan to use this camera to increase my creative repertoire.

Mark

 

[John Wiegerink]

Here is what has to be done to drop the bed:
Front Rise
The front standard may be raised by unscrewing the rising front lock nuts on both sides. For front fall, see Bed Drop.
Front Tilt (Backward)
The front standard may be tilted backward by loosening the tilt lock nuts. For forward front tilt, see Bed Drop.
Front Shift
The front standard may be shifted slightly left and right by first releasing the front standard lock, and then depressing the tab mounted immediately below, while pressing the front standard to the left or to the right.
Bed Drop (Anniversary and later)
The bed may be dropped by the following procedure:

• Return the front standard and focus rack to the rear of the camera, as if you were preparing to close the camera.
• Simultaneously depress the thumb press area of both bed braces.
• Lower the front bed.

Note that the front standard has now been lowered and tilted forward.

Using Bed Drop, the following movements can be obtained:

Front Fall
Drop the bed and correct for the forward tilt by using backward tilt. Use front rise to subtract from the maximum fall obtained by the bed drop.
Front Tilt (Forward)

Mark, this is for the Anniversary and later, but gives you an idea anyway.

Drop the bed and correct for the front fall by using front rise. Use front tilt backward to compensate for the maximum tilt obtained by the bed drop.

Hello John,

Thank you again. I will re-rack my rails to the rear and check that out as well. I appreciate your advice. I plan to use this camera to increase my creative repertoire.

Mark

Mark,
It's an interesting adventure that has a lot of curves, but once you hit the straight away it's a great trip. If you are like me at all you'll spend as much time just playing with this piece of equipment with no film as you will with film. These things have a mystique about them that is like a viral infection and just damn hard to shake. Then when you look at your first really good negative you'll smile, say to yourself, "Why did I wait this long" and be hooked forever. Really, it's a great trip. I started mine years ago and I'm still on it. Have fun! Yes, most of all have fun.

 

[shutterfinger]

A dirty, sticky, slow to move rangefinder is a PITA to adjust. A CLAed rangefinder is a breeze.
The silver body Kalrt is likely a type F, I should have noticed that earlier.
My posts on the Graflex.org site:
Adjustment: https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6693
CLA: https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6684

 

[Jim Jones]

Note: Mark's Anniversary SG has no front standard tilt adjustment. However, the standard from a later SG should work on the Anniversary model. Also, the Anniversary infinity stops are not the flip-up style. Perhaps the bed from a later SG can be installed on the Anniversary to provide this option. That's one work-around I haven't tried yet.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Note: Mark's Anniversary SG has no front standard tilt adjustment. However, the standard from a later SG should work on the Anniversary model. Also, the Anniversary infinity stops are not the flip-up style. Perhaps the bed from a later SG can be installed on the Anniversary to provide this option. That's one work-around I haven't tried yet.

Like I said, it's been years since I had one and the old memory isn't what it used to be. It is nice to have work-arounds, but sometimes they can end up being more expensive than just going out and buying a good example of a new model that has the features you want. Still, wark-arounds are an option.

 

[Mark Miller]

Here is what has to be done to drop the bed:
Front Rise
The front standard may be raised by unscrewing the rising front lock nuts on both sides. For front fall, see Bed Drop.
Front Tilt (Backward)
The front standard may be tilted backward by loosening the tilt lock nuts. For forward front tilt, see Bed Drop.
Front Shift
The front standard may be shifted slightly left and right by first releasing the front standard lock, and then depressing the tab mounted immediately below, while pressing the front standard to the left or to the right.
Bed Drop (Anniversary and later)
The bed may be dropped by the following procedure:

• Return the front standard and focus rack to the rear of the camera, as if you were preparing to close the camera.
• Simultaneously depress the thumb press area of both bed braces.
• Lower the front bed.

Note that the front standard has now been lowered and tilted forward.

Using Bed Drop, the following movements can be obtained:

Front Fall
Drop the bed and correct for the forward tilt by using backward tilt. Use front rise to subtract from the maximum fall obtained by the bed drop.
Front Tilt (Forward)

Mark, this is for the Anniversary and later, but gives you an idea anyway.

Drop the bed and correct for the front fall by using front rise. Use front tilt backward to compensate for the maximum tilt obtained by the bed drop.

Mark,
It's an interesting adventure that has a lot of curves, but once you hit the straight away it's a great trip. If you are like me at all you'll spend as much time just playing with this piece of equipment with no film as you will with film. These things have a mystique about them that is like a viral infection and just damn hard to shake. Then when you look at your first really good negative you'll smile, say to yourself, "Why did I wait this long" and be hooked forever. Really, it's a great trip. I started mine years ago and I'm still on it. Have fun! Yes, most of all have fun.

John,
I am definitely hooked. TLR's are my usual go to camera, but lately I have felt inspired by my Graflex. I almost feel that in a way we are doing the camera and it's previous owners justice by continuing to shoot with the camera, and to make compelling images. Imagine the history that these cameras would tell us if they could talk. Cool stuff. Anyhow, thank you for your support. I will start posting photos as soon as I can.

Mark

 

[Mark Miller]

Resetting the bed stops is bad practice. It destroys the range finder's calibration.

What you should have done if your camera has a drop bed was drop the bed, pull the front standard off the inner bed rails, raise the bed, pull the standard out to the front of the outer bed and put it back on the outer bed rails.

Hello Dan,
I figured out how to lower the bed and use the outer bed rails. I can reposition the bed stops back to their original spots. You make a good point regarding the rangefinder. Thank you.
Mark

 

[Mark Miller]

I agree with Dan, the front standard on that Anniversary Speed Graphic is sat on the rear rails, no way will that lens focus while there, bring it right out to at least half way along the front rails, then try again.

Ian

Hello Ian,

I figured out how to lower the bed and use the outer rails. I will restore the bed stops to their original spots. Thank you for your advice.

Mark

P.S. You photographs are amazing. I am inspired.

 

[Mark Miller]

If and only if you want to rangefinder focus with this lens then set the rails so that the rangefinder shows an infinity target in focus. The infinity should be at least 5000 feet away, farther is better.
With the focus lock set loosen the infinity stops and position the lens so that the same infinity target is razor sharp on the ground glass with the front standard locked and square to the film plane.
Although the Kalart was designed to work up to 162mm focal length lens you might be able to squeeze a little more out of it.
Kalart Adjustment: http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/kalart-adjustment.html
Anniversary Speed instruction manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/Anniversary.pdf
Anniversary Speed service manual: http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/AnniversaryService1.pdf

I know, you saw the lens on that camera in the listing and became lens blind to everything else.

Enjoy your camera!

Hello "Shutterfinger"
Ha Ha! Yes, I did become "Lens blind" and fortunately I will now be able to add the lens to my creative repertoire. Thank you for your advice and for the links.
Mark

 

[shutterfinger]

Resetting the bed stops is bad practice. It destroys the range finder's calibration.

I have to disagree here as nothing on the rangefinder has changed and if set up correctly returning the lens to infinity will restore the accurate relationship of the lens and rangefinder.
Lens are rarely their marked focal length, they can be up to 3mm either side of the marked focal length, so as long as its the lens the rf was calibrated for all is good but if its another lens with the same marked focal close focused distances may be off. The same goes for focus scales, they are scribed for that exact focal length.

Marc, Focusing with the rangefinder only on a target 50 to 100 feet away then moving closer check the rangefinder to the focus scale on the camera if they do not agree at the focus scale distance then adjust the rangefinder so that they do.
Now add a second pair of infinity stops and set them so that the Rodenstock lens can be set to the same position repeatedly. Now make a focus scale for the Rodenstock lens starting at infinity and working closer until you reach the same close distance of the existing focus scale or run out of bellows whichever comes first. (A 254mm lens on a Speed will focus to somewhere between 15 to 25 feet.) Now with a focus scale for the Rodenstock then you can focus with the rangefinder then transfer the focused distance from the rf matched focus scale to the Eurynar focus scale and be in focus without using the ground glass.

Now to the lens, 180946. A lens Collectors Vade Mecum shows an abbreviated version of Rodenstock serial numbers with 50,000 in 1910 and 200,000 in 1920 putting yours 1918-1919 vintage.
"Eurynar This was a major product, 50,000 being sold between 1909-1914."
"(d) f6.8. Examples noted have been 240mm, and 475mm for 14x17in. It was a Doppel Anastigmat in 1918
when fitted to the Enolde plate from Korelle.
Thus this is was made in 5 speeds and these variations may partly be due to the focal lengths (B.J.A. 1911,
p1260). They seem often to be 3-glass type Q16, but this seems to be a case where two or three layouts
may have been used under the same trade name. Thus a Gauss (Rod009) may have been used for a wider
angle version and a dialyt (Rod008) sold for narrower angle lenses. It has been noted as an f6.8 180mm lens.
It was continued into the interwar years as Series 1, f6.8 (Gauss); Series 111, f5.4; Series 1V, f4.5, and f3.8.
The f4.5 was said to cover 55° and have a dialyt layout. In use it was nice, especially if closed down a little. It
was made as 180, 210, 240, 300mm. (Series 11 is not known here.)"

 

[Ian Grant]

Mark, I have a 15cm f4.5 Eurynar on a Rodenstock 9x12 camera (made for them by Welta) SN 176676 so slightly older. You can often get a better date from the Compur SN as well, that indicates closer to 1920 for my shutter, it's post WWI so most likely 1919 as camera production returns to normal after the en of the war.. It's a very sharp lens but being a Dialyte isn't quite as contrasty as an uncoated Tessar due to it's 8 air/glass surfaces (6 internal).

Ian

 

[Mark Miller]

I have to disagree here as nothing on the rangefinder has changed and if set up correctly returning the lens to infinity will restore the accurate relationship of the lens and rangefinder.
Lens are rarely their marked focal length, they can be up to 3mm either side of the marked focal length, so as long as its the lens the rf was calibrated for all is good but if its another lens with the same marked focal close focused distances may be off. The same goes for focus scales, they are scribed for that exact focal length.

Marc, Focusing with the rangefinder only on a target 50 to 100 feet away then moving closer check the rangefinder to the focus scale on the camera if they do not agree at the focus scale distance then adjust the rangefinder so that they do.
Now add a second pair of infinity stops and set them so that the Rodenstock lens can be set to the same position repeatedly. Now make a focus scale for the Rodenstock lens starting at infinity and working closer until you reach the same close distance of the existing focus scale or run out of bellows whichever comes first. (A 254mm lens on a Speed will focus to somewhere between 15 to 25 feet.) Now with a focus scale for the Rodenstock then you can focus with the rangefinder then transfer the focused distance from the rf matched focus scale to the Eurynar focus scale and be in focus without using the ground glass.

Now to the lens, 180946. A lens Collectors Vade Mecum shows an abbreviated version of Rodenstock serial numbers with 50,000 in 1910 and 200,000 in 1920 putting yours 1918-1919 vintage.
"Eurynar This was a major product, 50,000 being sold between 1909-1914."
"(d) f6.8. Examples noted have been 240mm, and 475mm for 14x17in. It was a Doppel Anastigmat in 1918
when fitted to the Enolde plate from Korelle.
Thus this is was made in 5 speeds and these variations may partly be due to the focal lengths (B.J.A. 1911,
p1260). They seem often to be 3-glass type Q16, but this seems to be a case where two or three layouts
may have been used under the same trade name. Thus a Gauss (Rod009) may have been used for a wider
angle version and a dialyt (Rod008) sold for narrower angle lenses. It has been noted as an f6.8 180mm lens.
It was continued into the interwar years as Series 1, f6.8 (Gauss); Series 111, f5.4; Series 1V, f4.5, and f3.8.
The f4.5 was said to cover 55° and have a dialyt layout. In use it was nice, especially if closed down a little. It
was made as 180, 210, 240, 300mm. (Series 11 is not known here.)"
View attachment 181945 View attachment 181946 View attachment 181947

Hello Shutterfinger,

I am grateful for you taking the time to send me the information about my lens as well as your advice regarding the rangefinder. I have found this to be very informative, and I am more compelled and inspired to take great images with this lens and Speed Graphic camera. I imagine that if the lens could talk it would be an interesting walk through history. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Mark Miller

 

[Mark Miller]

Mark, I have a 15cm f4.5 Eurynar on a Rodenstock 9x12 camera (made for them by Welta) SN 176676 so slightly older. You can often get a better date from the Compur SN as well, that indicates closer to 1920 for my shutter, it's post WWI so most likely 1919 as camera production returns to normal after the en of the war.. It's a very sharp lens but being a Dialyte isn't quite as contrasty as an uncoated Tessar due to it's 8 air/glass surfaces (6 internal).

Ian

Ian,

This is all really interesting information. Thank you.

Mark