Reverse Engineering of Technicolor CMY Dyes and The Mordant from old Slides

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Reverse Engineering of Technicolor CMY Dyes and The Mordant from Film Cut

I started to search for obtaining Technicolor cut Movie Print or Slides for to analysis the cyan magenta yellow dyes and the mordant. I am pretty serious about that.

Photo Engineer , Do spectrum analysis reveal the dye chemicals or Do they need to do another test I dont know ?

And Do spectrum software have 1970 or earlier chemical spectrum signatures in its database ? University is near to me and they have lots of labs and I am in contact with ebay seller to send me 130 technicolor slides from an old technicolor technician but they are casted.

I will look for a good looking slide or movie cut from classifieds , if you know a source , please come in.

As I posted below , I worked years at printing press industry and never saw such a cmy colors. I love it and the skin tones , they give.

Thank you for reading,

Umut

 

[jrhilton]

Which "look" are you going for. Just saying you want "Technicolour" colours doesn't mean much to be honest.

In my eyes there are three main ones (forgetting the 2 strip process). Firstly the 1930s three strip process with dye-transfer prints made from the three negatives; secondly dye-transfer prints from Eastman colour films from the early 1950s to the late 1970s, or the final incarnation of the process from 1997 to 2002. Each of these look very different.

Each process was refined and I presume used different dyes/matrix film over time as they all look different. Also prints on 70mm don't have 100% identical colours as the same film in 35mm. Another example is the three strip process from start to finish changed from when it was introduced to when it was discontinued significantly in terms of how the final print was put together - by the end no B&W key was needed on the receiving film. Also it was not a fixed process, the success and colour of the final print was down in part to the skill of the technicolor operators making it.

These days it is quite hard to get hold of dye transfer prints as collectors are keen to get them first. If someone has film that was processed by Technicolor it is probably just Eastman color negative or positive film and not a true "technicolour" print.

I would save yourself the bother and use a computer to get the look unless you like tinkering.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

jrhilton,

I am looking for 60-70s look. I dont have an experience with later ones. Thank you warning for these slides , it was too good to be true.

If I can get the film to my hand and analysis it , I will report at an article with all details. If someone keeps a cut and share with me , its a win win deal. I found an 1972 patent and it was all about textile dyes. Finding dye information on technicolor patents at 70s is difficult but if anyone knows one from Technicolor , I would be grateful. Google patent search is a mess and it gives information if you write very distant words.

 

[MartinP]

It might be worth finding out as much as possible concerning 'color-timing' in cine post-production, as the colours and contrast were always set by a technician working with whatever materials were available.

The look of the film was down to the choices made by the color-timing tech (on instructions of the director, director of photography etc.) and could have been almost anything. Of course, after the earliest technicolor the balance was no longer timed during a dye-transfer action but balanced in a more 'modern' way - but the name stuck.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Has color timing of colors done with selecting an different dye set for each short sequence of movie. I think that would kill the whole balance but may be there were close looking dyes presented. I need more information .

 

[Photo Engineer]

The spectrum does not necessarily reveal the exact structure of a dye, but it might give you the class of the dye. For example, an azo and an anthroquinone dye might be differentiated by spectrum. However, the mordant can interfere and offset it all. So, this is a difficult process.

The best way to test a dye is to make a picture under your desired conditions.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

The best way to test a dye is to make a picture under your desired conditions.

PE,

Thank you for your reply. I could not understand above statement.

Is there a way to strip everything from the base plastic and try to separate everything from everything in the mixture ? Is it too difficult ? May be a chemistry thesis subject for a student , I dont know.

You say mordant cant interfere with spectrum and separating is difficult or impossible ?

 

[Photo Engineer]

The mordant CAN interfere.

And, mordant can be removed depending on the mordant type and dye type. However, the spectral response will probably change.

That is why a photograph, using the entire system is best to reveal whether your dyes have the proper characteristics. Remember, "we don't sell dyes, we sell photos" was a kind of motto at Kodak Research.

A typical photo would be of a group of people of different ethnic backgrounds and MacBeth color checkers in the photo. We used +2, +1, 0, -1 and -2 exposures to examine the results of over and under with latitude.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Ron,

I read mordant change the dye , but do cmy all dyes contact with the mordant or the bottom dye ,
may be darkest cyan ?

May be you can save me from lots of headache , do you know the dyes of 60-70s Technicolor ?

I found the 30s Technicolor dyes and someones patents from 72 on that dyes and technicolor , lots of them and they are all textile dyes.

Is there any textile dye which will be close to Kodachrome , another question.

Thank you and sorry for headache.

Umut

 

[Photo Engineer]

If a dye does not contact a mordant, it may not remain in place, so it can be said that all dyes must be mordanted or suffer the fate of movement (loss of sharpness), contact (loss of hue) and other dire fates. Yes, all dyes should mordant in some way or another.

No textile dye is similar to Kodachrome. They are different classes of chemistry.

I suggest that you read more on this.

PE