Reversal w/ Rodinal as first dev

[Daire Quinlan]

I came across this the other day again www.flickr.com/groups/diy_color/discuss/72157622896755065/ and due to a surfeit of both time and slide film and a corresponding lack of E6 chems, I tried it out over the weekend.

Got a roll of ektachrome and shot a few frames, clipped them & developed, observed the results, shot another few frames etc. I used Rodinal 1+50 at 40c for the first dev, then C-41 to completion for the rest.

1st few got 90 minutes in the rodinal. Agitated every 10 minutes or so, temp. maintained at about 40c for the entire time. Apart from being really boring, this completely nuked the slides, eventual reversals were almost completely transparent, even the unexposed borders. The re-exposure was a few minutes in indirect sunlight, C-41 dev was about 25 minutes at about 40->30c or so. Scanned this is what I got...



Ok so I reckoned given the enthusiasm with which I approached the re-exposure and c-41 dev, that it was likely the rodinal time was too long. I mean I know the first E6 dev is meant to be pretty hardcore, but I don't think I'd ever subject a B&W film to an hour and a half of rodinal at 1+50 at 40c whilst agitating continuously :-D

2nd batch got an hour, otherwise identical process, this was the result...



Ahhh. So we see, colours much better, highlights still blown though, and the borders are still pretty much see through.

3rd batch got 30 minutes, again process otherwise was identical:






Much better, they actually LOOK like nice slides for a start when they come out of the tank, colours are ok, film borders almost opaque. I reckon it needs maybe just a smidgeon less, or next time I might try giving it 20 minutes with agitation and then let it sit for another 20 minutes with no agitation and see how it pans out.

End result : Qualified success :-D

 

[gone]

Great stuff. I like the progression. That's how I test things too, by shooting a few frames, cutting them in the change bag in-camera, and loading the clipped stuff onto a reel. You can test 4 or 5 times w/ just one roll that way. I think your last 30 minute regime shows real promise. Thanks for sharing this. Guess Rodinal really IS a do all developer.

 

[Rudeofus]

Very interesting results. One thing I would like to know is how these slides compare to the real thing (i.e. correct E6 processing) in terms of grain and sharpness. Obviously this won't show in small scans, and real E-6 process is likely going to be better in both regards, but the question is how big the difference actually is. Is there any chance you could come up with a meaningful comparison, e.g. a comparison of hi res scans of some section, or at least a verbal description of the difference you see in projected slides?

 

[zehner21]

I'm just curious: are you using a Petzval-like lens?

 

[tnabbott]

Did you re-expose in daylight between the Rodinal and C41 steps?

 

[Daire Quinlan]

Very interesting results. One thing I would like to know is how these slides compare to the real thing (i.e. correct E6 processing) in terms of grain and sharpness. ?

I don't know, I have no basis for comparison. I've never had any of this particular film correctly processed before. The film borders are still a little transparent, and there's definitely a magenta cast to the image (which I've corrected in post) but other than that I can't really say.

@zehner21 it's a Helios 44-2, that rendering of OOF areas is pretty characteristic of it.

@tnabbott in the first two cases, yes, indirect sunlight. The third time I popped a strobe a few times about 2 feet or so away from the film. Solely because it was dark when I did the 3rd batch, I don't think it would have made much of a difference had I used daylight instead.

 

[alienmeatsack]

I've tried my own reversal before with less then stellar results. I've tried Dektol as my BW first dev for mine since it's a very aggressive developer.

This thread has me thinking it could be fun to try again.

So your current method is:
1. 1st Dev = Rodinal 1:50 @40c/106f for 20 minutes with normal agitation, then 20 more minutes stand (maybe w minor agitation near end?)
2. Rinse
3. Reversal by exposing film on reel to sunlight or strobe for the appropriate amount of time (not sure how long?)
4. C41 Developer @40c-30c/106f-86f for around 25minutes
5. Rinse
6. Bleach/Fix or Blix - How long on these, normal times?
6. Stabilizer
7. Photoflo or similar

Sounds similar to my trial, but I used around 102f temperature chemicals, I didn't run my Dektol nearly as long (I think I did 1:3 for 10 minutes which is 3x the normal time for most films) and I din't do the C41 Dev for long, I just did it for the usual 3.5m at 102f.

Any other notes like the film is 1-2 stops slow due to age, you shot it over or under box speed, etc? How fresh is your C41 developer? Are you using a 2 stage B/F or just blix? And how long?

 

[JoJo]

I did similar experiments but was not successful with Rodinal.
See here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Atomal (A49) gave much better results because this developer creates much more density.
Rodinal will not do the reqired density for the lights after reversal step. Too long FD time with Rodinal creates fog, which makes the slightly transparent shadows.
Atomal is not a classic b/w developer. It uses chemicals similar to color developers and creates the darkest blacks with color slide or color movie film.
I use this also for developing color movie film as b/w. It gives very brilliant results.

The C-41 step must be longer than normal, because E-6 film emulsion is thicker than standard C-41 film. It takes more time to form all colors through the emulsion. I used 12 Min at 35 degrees C, which is more than double standard time.

Joachim

 

[Daire Quinlan]

I did similar experiments but was not successful with Rodinal.
See here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Atomal (A49) gave much better results because this developer creates much more density.
Rodinal will not do the reqired density for the lights after reversal step. Too long FD time with Rodinal creates fog, which makes the slightly transparent shadows.
Atomal is not a classic b/w developer. It uses chemicals similar to color developers and creates the darkest blacks with color slide or color movie film.
I use this also for developing color movie film as b/w. It gives very brilliant results.

The C-41 step must be longer than normal, because E-6 film emulsion is thicker than standard C-41 film. It takes more time to form all colors through the emulsion. I used 12 Min at 35 degrees C, which is more than double standard time.

Joachim

Yeah I figured the Rodinal was doing that, otherwise the film borders would have been black. I've used Diafine before as a first dev but it was nowhere near active enough, I got dark dark slides and opaque shadows :-D I'll look into Atomal, though my main reason for using Rodinal was because I had a bottle sitting around :-D And yeah I think I just dumped it into the C41 first dev and left it for about 20 minutes, agitating occasionaly whenever I walked past. It's meant to go to completion anyway. Also I had to bleach for a lot longer than C41, so the last batch got 20 minutes in the bleach as well.

Full process (for @alienmeatsack) was

Film shot at box speed
30 minutes in Rodinal 1+50 at 40c in a water bath to maintain temp and agitating every 10 minutes or so (I think it got 4 or 5 agitiations in total)
washed, taken off the reel, exposed to either daylight (in the first two rolls) or a couple of pops from a strobe at about 2 feet (in the last case)
Put back on the reel, C41 first dev at 40c for about 20 minutes, intermittent agitation.
Bleached for 20 minutes
washed
Fixed for 10 minutes
washed
Stabiliser, hung up to dry.

No photoflo obv as that would just wash out the stab.

 

[Punker]

Sorry to revive an old thread. I've been looking for a substitute for my E6 first developer which I'm sure is toast by now (mixed in April). I've heard the Color Developer and Blix last much longer so they're probably fine to use. Does anyone know or think that doing Rodinal (APH-09 in my case) in the manner written above, plus light re-exposure if necessary, plus the remaining E6 steps might work out fine?

Thanks

 

[Athiril]

Sorry to revive an old thread. I've been looking for a substitute for my E6 first developer which I'm sure is toast by now (mixed in April). I've heard the Color Developer and Blix last much longer so they're probably fine to use. Does anyone know or think that doing Rodinal (APH-09 in my case) in the manner written above, plus light re-exposure if necessary, plus the remaining E6 steps might work out fine?

Thanks

Cut a small strip off a test roll and test your first dev.

See if you can find the Kodak E-6 First Developer Replenisher, inexpensive, still sold in Aus iirc, not sure if sold in the U.S. since its not listed on B&H

Anyway you're better off mixing up something like Watkin's E-6 First Dev, it should work better than Rodinal by a long margin. Otherwise I'd try Rodinal at about 38c at 1+25 to 1+50 for the same time (6 min) with 1g of potassium thiocyanate added to start with.

 

[Punker]

Thanks so much for the info. Couldn't find the developer replenisher for sale anywhere on the web. As for using Rodinal, do you recommend the potassium thiocyanate for its grain reducing qualities or for other reasons? Do you think it would work without this item?

 

[Athiril]

I recommend it to clear the highlights, you'll otherwise see that the other recommendation here is 30 minutes at 40c and 1+50 due to the highlights not being cleared and need to be developed out instead.

 

[Punker]

Thank you for all your help!