Reversal Processing of 120 size Rollei Superpan 200 in the Adox Scale Reversal Kit

ChrisGalway said:

"I would not fix after you have Bleached for a longer time, the constant changes in PH level can indeed soften the emulsion. So basically when you Bleach the film out there is no no need for this extra fix and the emulsion damage should be solved."

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Here's where my observations disagree (Coming from Ilford Reversal Processing - a tad more DIY approach to reversal) as there's a definite density difference when leaving half of the roll unfixed and fixing the other half, keeping every other step the same.
It's the Potassium Permanganate Bleach that can damage the emulsion. To avoid it:
1) reduce concentration of it and keep bleach time the same. Underbleaching is easy to spot - looks like weird Solarization effect in shadows/darks/denser areas. Just hunt down bleach time to completion as there's no point in overbleaching one's film.
In my experience the median and starting point is 1/3 dilute Permanganate Bleach and 5 minutes bleach time with constant agitation and go from there.
2) fix your films happily away to obtain far more neutral tone, predictable black level/density and archival stability.


I'm uneasy with leaving my slides unfixed. If slides are really developed to max after 2nd developer, then why the stark differences - both measurable and obvious to the naked eye?


I tend to leave film unfixed only when:
- I want extra dense, warm/sepia slides or
- I've overexposed/overdeveloped my film and further reduction of black level is not advisable in hopes to have something of use - regardless of archival stability.


Projection heat and light levels stresses slides quite heavily - you probably want to ensure some archival stability if you want to project them often at the same fidelity,

Ivo Stunga said:

Here's where my observations disagree (Coming from Ilford Reversal Processing - a tad more DIY approach to reversal) as there's a definite density difference when leaving half of the roll unfixed and fixing the other half, keeping every other step the same.
It's the Potassium Permanganate Bleach that can damage the emulsion. To avoid it:
1) reduce concentration of it and keep bleach time the same. Underbleaching is easy to spot - looks like weird Solarization effect in shadows/darks/denser areas. Just hunt down bleach time to completion as there's no point in overbleaching one's film.
In my experience the median and starting point is 1/3 dilute Permanganate Bleach and 5 minutes bleach time with constant agitation and go from there.
2) fix your films happily away to obtain far more neutral tone, predictable black level/density and archival stability.


I'm uneasy with leaving my slides unfixed. If slides are really developed to max after 2nd developer, then why the stark differences - both measurable and obvious to the naked eye?


I tend to leave film unfixed only when:
- I want extra dense, warm/sepia slides or
- I've overexposed/overdeveloped my film and further reduction of black level is not advisable in hopes to have something of use - regardless of archival stability.


Projection heat and light levels stresses slides quite heavily - you probably want to ensure some archival stability if you want to project them often at the same fidelity,

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Just to be clear, it was a technical person at Adox that suggested not fixing the film.

But I have followed his advice, because my slides are only viewed occasionally in an optical 3D viewer, and they are stored in the dark.

I agree that I should probably fix the film, and I'll try that on my next roll of film ... probably not for 2-3 months though! I'll report back when I do this.

Thanks for your input.

ChrisGalway said:

Just to be clear, it was a technical person at Adox that suggested not fixing the film.

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Neat.
To me - experiment is the king though.


When I just started the reversal game I too struggled with regular occurrences of emulsion problems: lifting and flaking off in part or completely. So one very fine day I just really had enough of this BS and decided to nail down what causes it, thinking:

- PH changes?
Probably, but nobody is reporting emulsion damage with regular negative process where alkaline developer is followed by acidic stop, followed by acidic or alkaline fixer some more, incorporating even toners... Therefore I rule out traditional chems/workflow and look for something that's unique to Reversal:

- Bleach!
If emulsion isn't damaged by traditional dev process - even with higher temperatures or long (stand) development times... then maybe it's bleach that causes the problems?
This suspicion is further strengthened by reports of people switching to other bleaching solutions - like dichromate and iron-out, reporting that emulsion damage went away by doing so.
But I don't want to enhance the toxicity of reversal and I have other uses for permanganate in household (water treatment filters) and I don't want to switch my workflow as I quite like Ilford Reversal and the established routine. So I decided to test out if reduced bleach concentration would be gentler to emulsion whilst still achieving complete bleaching.
I Diluted my bleach with the same amount of water as part A and B (1 part A + 1 part B + 1 part water), and bleached away a problematic film (Fomapan R 100) for the same time and with the same agitation shceme and keeping rest of the process completely unchanged - 5min fixer time included.
Doing so - no emulsion damage to report - gone! Not even marks on the perforation area from the BB in the ratcheting Paterson reel! Whereas by following Foma Reversal Set recipe to the letter years back, I had only 1-2 films with no emulsoion damage out of 10(!)... Back then Foma said to bleach its film for 8(!) minutes, ruining all but a few rolls. It's about this point I gave up blind belief to the written word and the endless supply of contradicting experts online, and started to satisfy each and every curiosity with a simple experiement.

Data tells it all.

Now I experience emulsion damage only with films I'm testing out for the first time and only in very rare occasions. No more damaged Fomapan films. No more damaged Aviphot films, no more damaged... any film whatsoever - have reversed pretty much majority of BW films out there and not just that: E-6 and C-41 films too - no damage to report with dilute bleach - happy slides instead.
And knowing now that it's the permanganate bleach that causes emulsion problems, I can control emulsion damage or underbleaching for an artistic effect


Bonus:
Saves some money / environment too as you end up using less acid and potassium permanganate for the same effect and improved reversal quality.
Or you end up with spare bleach from reversal kit that uses permanganate bleach. You can use that to lighten up stupid dense reversal efforts for example...

*to elaborate: I'm encouraging an experiment (maybe it's the bleach after all...) and to see for yourself, not ditching said Adox tech guy or his opinion on this matter

Ivo Stunga said:

*to elaborate: I'm encouraging an experiment (maybe it's the bleach after all...) and to see for yourself, not ditching said Adox tech guy or his opinion on this matter

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That's my philosophy as well. There are so many variables in film photography, it's best to experiment and find out what works for you. My only problem is that I'm reluctant to experiment on "important" rolls of film ... and it seems most of my rolls of film are (in my mind) "important"!

It's possible to nail down just with 3 rolls. Or 1 roll cut in 3 strips to have material for reversal experiment:

1
Is a test burner. Just go out and show film some love and light, bracket healthily and don't hope for fine images yet. Then see how it reverses in default kit times.
Film turned out too dark or too light? Add some hypo to lighten or reduce 1st dev time to darken. Agitation frequency has an effect on dev time and contrast. Too contrasty? Reduce agitation frequency and increase 1st dev time a little. Too flat? Increase agitation frequency and reduce time a bit. Say by 30% as it's best to leave fine-tuning for later.
Emulsion becomes very soft or is damaged? Reduce bleach concentration and retry, keeping time unchanged.
Weird effect of incomplete reversal in darks and strong shadows that look somewhat like Solarization? Increase bleach time until problem went away.
Don't change more than 1 parameter and evaluate only dried slides.

2
Based on 1st results you have now some idea what EI worked best or if the film was under or over developed. Now's the chance to attempt more precise 1st dev time. Continue to bracket to attempt to nail down box speed, because it's possible that doing Step 1 you have some examples of push 1-2 and pull 1-2 on hand.

3
Fine-tuning.


I'll do this very same procedure with HP5+ @1600 this weekend as I haven't tried this film yet and it's stupid dark here in Northern Europe at this time of the year.

Ivo Stunga said:

It's possible to nail down just with 3 rolls. Or 1 roll cut in 3 strips to have material for reversal experiment:

1
Is a test burner. Just go out and show film some love and light, bracket healthily and don't hope for fine images yet. Then see how it reverses in default kit times.
Film turned out too dark or too light? Add some hypo to lighten or reduce 1st dev time to darken. Agitation frequency has an effect on dev time and contrast. Too contrasty? Reduce agitation frequency and increase 1st dev time a little. Too flat? Increase agitation frequency and reduce time a bit. Say by 30% as it's best to leave fine-tuning for later.
Emulsion becomes very soft or is damaged? Reduce bleach concentration and retry, keeping time unchanged.
Weird effect of incomplete reversal in darks and strong shadows that look somewhat like Solarization? Increase bleach time until problem went away.
Don't change more than 1 parameter and evaluate only dried slides.

2
Based on 1st results you have now some idea what EI worked best or if the film was under or over developed. Now's the chance to attempt more precise 1st dev time. Continue to bracket to attempt to nail down box speed, because it's possible that doing Step 1 you have some examples of push 1-2 and pull 1-2 on hand.

3
Fine-tuning.


I'll do this very same procedure with HP5+ @1600 this weekend as I haven't tried this film yet and it's stupid dark here in Northern Europe at this time of the year.

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I must visit Latvia sometime ... but not in winter, even darker than Ireland!

Do you have any recommendations for films that give the best results when reversal processed? I use 120 size, so they are the ones that interest me the most. I'm pleased with the Rollei Superpan 200 but of course happy to try others, both lower and higher ISO. I'm going to stick with the Adox Scala kit for now.

ChrisGalway said:

I must visit Latvia sometime ... but not in winter, even darker than Ireland!

Do you have any recommendations for films that give the best results when reversal processed? I use 120 size, so they are the ones that interest me the most. I'm pleased with the Rollei Superpan 200 but of course happy to try others, both lower and higher ISO. I'm going to stick with the Adox Scala kit for now.

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Hi Chris,
as a side note, I've got the very same Adox kit you have, for quite some time now.
It has developed (no pun intended!) some floaties in the developer bottle, something grey that stays afloat and sinks if the bottle is shaken.
Did it happen to your kit as well?

No, no problems like that, but I only got the kit around 3-4 months ago. I used half of it last week, and have kept the rest (using Protectan) for use in a few months time. They claim up to 24 weeks for the stock developer with Protectan (or similar) and 48 weeks for the stock bleach, but there's no way I would keep/trust them that long.

ChrisGalway said:

Do you have any recommendations for films that give the best results when reversal processed? I use 120 size, so they are the ones that interest me the most. I'm pleased with the Rollei Superpan 200 but of course happy to try others, both lower and higher ISO. I'm going to stick with the Adox Scala kit for now.

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Define "best"

- For sharp and deeply rendered landscapes with nice vegatation separation, IR fun and tripod activities hardly anything beats Adox HR-50 that is the same stuff as Scala 50, which is a tad improved (for pictorial contrast) Aviphot Pan 80 - best film for slides for sure!
- Too slow? Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200 then at EI100.
- Contrasty interiors? I'm in awe with what Adox CHS 100II can do, presenting bunch of pleasing grain too
- Kentmere 100 provides respectable latitude and can be easily pushed to 800 with hardly any problems
- FP4+ has nice latitude without grain
- Delta 100 looks very nice for some portraits and metal textures, can be pushed to 400 for some contrast porn
- Delta 3200 is cool for live events, overcast winter and some nights in the city
- ...


Ireland has green grass in the winter - travesty! Only dull grays here

Ivo Stunga said:

Define "best"

- For sharp and deeply rendered landscapes with nice vegatation separation, IR fun and tripod activities hardly anything beats Adox HR-50 that is the same stuff as Scala 50, which is a tad improved (for pictorial contrast) Aviphot Pan 80 - best film for slides for sure!
- Too slow? Superpan 200 / Aviphot 200 then at EI100.
- Contrasty interiors? I'm in awe with what Adox CHS 100II can do, presenting bunch of pleasing grain too
- Kentmere 100 provides respectable latitude and can be easily pushed to 800 with hardly any problems
- FP4+ has nice latitude without grain
- Delta 100 looks very nice for some portraits and metal textures, can be pushed to 400 for some contrast porn
- Delta 3200 is cool for live events, overcast winter and some nights in the city
- ...


Ireland has green grass in the winter - travesty! Only dull grays here

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Thanks! I'll order some Rollei Retro 80S (similar to Aviphot 80?) and Adox CMS100II ... both available as 120 size.

ChrisGalway said:

(similar to Aviphot 80?) and Adox CMS100II

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It is in 135. And do show later how it turned out in 120!

ChrisGalway said:

A year ago I made a post about reversal processing Pan F: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...f-plus-in-the-adox-scala-reversal-kit.190152/. (Thank you for all the feedback.)

The results were "OK" but I had quite a few problems, particularly with emulsion softening and marks on the processed film. So recently I tried two rolls of Rollei Superpan 200 in 120 size, exposed at ISO 200, on the advice from someone at Adox (their recommended Scala films are only available in 35mm), and the results are excellent. I followed the Kit instructions almost to the letter, in particular I did not use any fixer, but with a First Development time of 9:00 minutes @ 21degC. (I was aiming for 20degC processing but the room was too hot!). Agitation was 15sec per minute implemented as 12 inversions.

I can highly recommend Superpan 200 with the Adox kit for those who use 120 film. The only "feature" is that not everyone might like the extended red sensitivity of this film (apparently it's aerial film stock).

If anyone has suggestions for other 120 films to use with the Adox Scala Kit, I would be interested to hear of them ... please give a First Development time/temperature and any other hints!

Of course it would be great if someone compiled a list of "good" films and first development times for use with the Adox Scala Kit. My 9mins @ 21deg for Rollei Superpan 200 exposed at ISO 200 is one line of the table.

Chris

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Thank you for time for Rollei Superpan 200 (second developer 5min??)

Do you or anyone else has times for Agfa Copex Rapid 50?? same as Scala 50??

edit: typo corrected superman -> superpan

awalker said:

Thank you for time for Rollei Superpan 200 (second developer 5min??)

Do you or anyone else has times for Agfa Copex Rapid 50?? same as Scala 50??

edit: typo corrected superman -> superpan

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6min in Second Developer (I don't think it's critical ... to completion).

No, I have no tried Agfa Copex Rapid.

You've reminded me, I have half of a Scala kit left, better use it soon!

1st stage time, developer concentration and agitation scheme is what matters - image builds at this stage. The rest of the procedure is just there to turn the negative obtained in 1st stage into positive.

Bleach times/concentrations can change if over/under bleached. In my experience Foma can benefit from less time in permanganate bleach. Other films I've tried are more robust.

Overbleach in potassium permanganate bleach damages or even lifts the emulsion completely and is easy to spot as a catastrophic failure.
Underbleach however results in a solarization-like effect in shadows/denser areas as they don't get bleached and thus reversed properly, and all detail is lost there while highs and mids are OK.

Thank you for advising!

What time do you recommend for Fomapan100?. I have made several tests and i find 8:45-9:00 for the first developer.

jejes said:

What time do you recommend for Fomapan100?. I have made several tests and i find 8:45-9:00 for the first developer.

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I've never tried Fomopan 100 (for reversal), but it seems you are the authority on it! Just to clarify, which kit are you using, and what temperature? And could you post an example image? (See my post #45).

ChrisGalway said:

I've never tried Fomopan 100 (for reversal), but it seems you are the authority on it! Just to clarify, which kit are you using, and what temperature? And could you post an example image? (See my post #45).

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Just for the records, Fomapan 100 can be succesfully developed in the Foma reversal kit using the same times as the reversal counterpart, Fomapan 100 R, that is 12 minutes in first developer. I would bleach the Fomapan 100 for only 5 minutes and not 8 minutes.