Reversal Processing of 120 size Rollei Superpan 200 in the Adox Scale Reversal Kit

ChrisGalway · Apr 12, 2024

A year ago I made a post about reversal processing Pan F: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...f-plus-in-the-adox-scala-reversal-kit.190152/. (Thank you for all the feedback.)

The results were "OK" but I had quite a few problems, particularly with emulsion softening and marks on the processed film. So recently I tried two rolls of Rollei Superpan 200 in 120 size, exposed at ISO 200, on the advice from someone at Adox (their recommended Scala films are only available in 35mm), and the results are excellent. I followed the Kit instructions almost to the letter, in particular I did not use any fixer, but with a First Development time of 9:00 minutes @ 21degC. (I was aiming for 20degC processing but the room was too hot!). Agitation was 15sec per minute implemented as 12 inversions.

I can highly recommend Superpan 200 with the Adox kit for those who use 120 film. The only "feature" is that not everyone might like the extended red sensitivity of this film (apparently it's aerial film stock).

If anyone has suggestions for other 120 films to use with the Adox Scala Kit, I would be interested to hear of them ... please give a First Development time/temperature and any other hints!

Of course it would be great if someone compiled a list of "good" films and first development times for use with the Adox Scala Kit. My 9mins @ 21deg for Rollei Superpan 200 exposed at ISO 200 is one line of the table.

Chris

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 12, 2024

ChrisGalway said:
A year ago I made a post about reversal processing Pan F: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...f-plus-in-the-adox-scala-reversal-kit.190152/. (Thank you for all the feedback.)

The results were "OK" but I had quite a few problems, particularly with emulsion softening and marks on the processed film. So recently I tried two rolls of Rollei Superpan 200 in 120 size, exposed at ISO 200, on the advice from someone at Adox (their recommended Scala films are only available in 35mm), and the results are excellent. I followed the Kit instructions almost to the letter, in particular I did not use any fixer, but with a First Development time of 9:00 minutes @ 21degC. (I was aiming for 20degC processing but the room was too hot!). Agitation was 15sec per minute implemented as 12 inversions.

I can highly recommend Superpan 200 with the Adox kit for those who use 120 film. The only "feature" is that not everyone might like the extended red sensitivity of this film (apparently it's aerial film stock).

If anyone has suggestions for other 120 films to use with the Adox Scala Kit, I would be interested to hear of them ... please give a First Development time/temperature and any other hints!

Of course it would be great if someone compiled a list of "good" films and first development times for use with the Adox Scala Kit. My 9mins @ 21deg for Rollei Superpan 200 exposed at ISO 200 is one line of the table.

Chris

No fixing bath?
Was it the culprit of the emulsion softening?
I feel what most of the times is assessed as emulsion damage, it's not. It's actually the subbing layer that fails and for this reason nothing can be done user-side. It must be corrected during film manufacturing. That is, in the last instance, one must use only films that are designed to withstand a permanganic acid bleach step.
Thanks for your report and I all in all applaud your idea of collecting good film list to use with this very good reversal kit.

ChrisGalway · Apr 12, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
No fixing bath?
Was it the culprit of the emulsion softening?
I feel what most of the times is assessed as emulsion damage, it's not. It's actually the subbing layer that fails and for this reason nothing can be done user-side. It must be corrected during film manufacturing. That is, in the last instance, one must use only films that are designed to withstand a permanganic acid bleach step.
Thanks for your report and I all in all applaud your idea of collecting good film list to use with this very good reversal kit.

Yes, the guy at Adox said

"I would not fix after you have Bleached for a longer time, the constant changes in PH level can indeed soften the emulsion. So basically when you Bleach the film out there is no no need for this extra fix and the emulsion damage should be solved."

I don't fully understand all the chemistry, but this time the film is unmarked and in good condition (dry). It might be that my previous films (e.g. Pan F, FP4) were susceptible to softening, but Rollei Superpan 200 is not. I feel I've found good solution but am always interested to hear about other possible alternatives.

Chris

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 12, 2024

The subbing layer is a glue-like layer that promotes the adherence of the emulsion layer to the base layer. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done to avoid the subbing layer damage when a permanganic acid based bleach is used. Some films have a stronger subbing layer (ex. Rollei Superpan as you have experimented yourself), some others do not (all Ilford films). It's the nature of the beast.
Except if you are using a dichromate bleach, which you have to make yourself and it's toxic to handle because dichromate actually hardens the emulsion layer.
However I would not use that toxic chemical.
A glutaraldehyde hardener does very little in that it reinforces the emulsion layer and contrasts its swelling (due to the extreme pH shifts between first developer - bleach - clearing - second developer and fixer). Omitting the fixer simply eliminates one variable to the equation.
If you have a low DMax on the final slides it's very handy to have some selenium toner to use as a final bath instead of the fixer.

Hint: Adox reversal kit has the bleach that comes in a single bottle, this is possible only if hexametaphosphate is used as a "preservative" in the bleach itself. Every other reversal kit has two separates bottle of the bleach, one for the permanganate and the other for the sulfuric acid.

ChrisGalway · Apr 12, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
The subbing layer is a glue-like layer that promotes the adherence of the emulsion layer to the base layer. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done to avoid the subbing layer damage when a permanganic acid based bleach is used. Some films have a stronger subbing layer (ex. Rollei Superpan as you have experimented yourself), some others do not (all Ilford films). It's the nature of the beast.
Except if you are using a dichromate bleach, which you have to make yourself and it's toxic to handle because dichromate actually hardens the emulsion layer.
However I would not use that toxic chemical.
A glutaraldehyde hardener does very little in that it reinforces the emulsion layer and contrasts its swelling (due to the extreme pH shifts between first developer - bleach - clearing - second developer and fixer). Omitting the fixer simply eliminates one variable to the equation.
If you have a low DMax on the final slides it's very handy to have some selenium toner to use as a final bath instead of the fixer.

Hint: Adox reversal kit has the bleach that comes in a single bottle, this is possible only if hexametaphosphate is used as a "preservative" in the bleach itself. Every other reversal kit has two separates bottle of the bleach, one for the permanganate and the other for the sulfuric acid.

ChrisGalway · Apr 12, 2024

Thanks Alessandro, it now makes sense why I had these problems with Pan F and FP4.

I started developing my own films about 65 years ago, as a kid, and definitely remember using potassium dichromate as a bleach (it's an orange colour isn't it?) ... how times change!

Can you expand on the formulation and use of a selenium toner to increase the D_max? I'm happy with the results I've got but always like to experiment!

Chris

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 12, 2024

The selenium toner is used as a global intensifying step where the process coundn't yield a gorgeous DMax. The toner must be used diluite 1+20 to 1+40 as a last step after the redevelopment or second development (and instead of a fixer step), then proceed normally washing film, then photo-flo etc...
A normal selenium toner (Kodak, Adox, Bellini, Harman etc...) can be used, nothing special here.

ChrisGalway · Apr 13, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
The selenium toner is used as a global intensifying step where the process coundn't yield a gorgeous DMax. The toner must be used diluite 1+20 to 1+40 as a last step after the redevelopment or second development (and instead of a fixer step), then proceed normally washing film, then photo-flo etc...
A normal selenium toner (Kodak, Adox, Bellini, Harman etc...) can be used, nothing special here.

Thanks, I read about selenium toning for prints, but did not realise one could apply it to reversal slides. Doesn't it alter the neutral greys in the slide as well as increase the D_max? How long should I give it in the selenium bath and should I increase the 1st development time a bit to make the slides a little lighter before the toner shakes effect?

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 13, 2024

ChrisGalway said:
Thanks, I read about selenium toning for prints, but did not realise one could apply it to reversal slides. Doesn't it alter the neutral greys in the slide as well as increase the D_max? How long should I give it in the selenium bath and should I increase the 1st development time a bit to make the slides a little lighter before the toner shakes effect?

I used to process my slides normally. The toner would not offset the overall image tone substantially and would increment only the DMax. For example, Fomapan 100 (not the R version) would reverse very well in the Foma kit but will yield a somewhat lower DMax. With the selenium toner I was able to re-gain that lost DMax. I treated the slides in the selenium toner by inspection, there's not a fixed process time.
About the tone: it's not something that we can control directly, it's inherent to the emulsion silver composition and grain structure.
Contrary to what can be read on the net, reversal process gives very limited room for adjusting the final image qualities of the slides.

ChrisGalway · Apr 13, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
I used to process my slides normally. The toner would not offset the overall image tone substantially and would increment only the DMax. For example, Fomapan 100 (not the R version) would reverse very well in the Foma kit but will yield a somewhat lower DMax. With the selenium toner I was able to re-gain that lost DMax. I treated the slides in the selenium toner by inspection, there's not a fixed process time.
About the tone: it's not something that we can control directly, it's inherent to the emulsion silver composition and grain structure.
Contrary to what can be read on the net, reversal process gives very limited room for adjusting the final image qualities of the slides.

Thanks, I'll give this a try in my next batch ... probably not for a few weeks/months though!

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 13, 2024

These days it's difficult, at least in EU or Italy, to find a good priced selenium toner.
Adox selentoner is currently sold out and no restock date. Harman selenium toner is outrageously expensive, Kodak krst is nowhere to be found, remains the Bellini selenium toner, which is isn't exactly cheap plus I don't trust Bellini products at all...

koraks · Apr 13, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
I don't trust Bellini products at all...

That's subjective of course, but as far as I can tell, their products are dependable and of good quality. I also don't see people reporting problems with them the way they do with the chemistry of certain other companies. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase Bellini, especially if it's all that's available. Besides, there's not much a company could mess up with a selenium toner. It's a very simple product.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 13, 2024

Careful. Selenium toner WILL shift the tone of the negative, usually towards blue. I intensify negatives often, especially HP5, to get it to work with some Alt. processes.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 13, 2024

Andrew O'Neill said:
Careful. Selenium toner WILL shift the tone of the negative, usually towards blue. I intensify negatives often, especially HP5, to get it to work with some Alt. processes.

Negative is one thing, positive is another. A finished b&w slide has way another silver halide structure than a negative one.
Regarding Bellini: it's an italian company and I live in Italy. It's not that a praised manufactured here, italians buy more Adox, Ilford and the likes instead of Bellini chemistry.
They states they're able to reproduce Kodak chemistry: i highly doubt it since Kodak chemistry it's trade secret (I mean the real packaging content - not the general formulas that are free to anyone). Hence I don't trust Bellini chemistry and I don't like their approach to reuse over and over the working solutions, I don't like the fact that datas lack about development time (ex Hydrofen, RDL, EuroHC etc...), they rarely gives shelf life dataof their products, and the MSDSs should be open to everyone, not available only upon request.

koraks · Apr 13, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
A finished b&w slide has way another silver halide structure than a negative one.

They have the exact same silver halide structure, i.e. none.

@Andrew O'Neill concerning the toned negatives, do they have the same hue when you look through them as opposed to at them at an angle? I can imagine this makes a difference. There's also a difference in absolute density, but this won't matter in terms of hue; higher densities will just mask the toner's hue, at least from a certain point onward.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 13, 2024

koraks said:
They have the exact same silver halide structure, i.e. none.

"The action of the silver halide solvent in the first developer effectively
increases the speed of the reversal film or paper, because a shorter light
exposure may be given and the solvent's action will insure that the highlights
of the positive image will be clear. The fact that all grains in a photographic
emulsion layer cannot be made developable by light exposure is
thus circumvented by giving a less-than-total exposure for all the silver
halide crystals, developing the exposed silver halide fully to form a highcontrast
silver image, and removing some of the remaining silver halide by
solvent action to insure a clear positive highlight. The solvent is particularly
effective where most needed-that is, in the areas of maximum exposure,
as these areas become the highlights of the positive image. Here, only small
silver halide crystals of low light sensitivity, probably of high silver iodide
content,22- 26 remain after chemical development of the negative image. It
is much easier to remove these silver halide crystals by solvent action than
by attempting to expose and develop them. The presence of the developed
silver acts as a catalyst for the solvent action of the thiocyanate. Most silver
is formed in the areas of maximum light exposure. Thus, the presence of the
most silver filaments results in the maximum solvent action, which is needed
to remove the less sensitive silver halide from the region that will be the
highlights of the positive image."

"The nature of the silver image formed on reversal development is explained
on the basis that both chemical and physical development are
occurring in the first developer. The thiocyanate dissolves some of the silver
from the silver halide crystals and, in the presence of large amounts of sodium
sulfite, releases the silver ions for reaction with the sulfite ions. The thiocyanate
is available again for dissolving more silver halide. The silver sulfite
and some silver thiocyanate, as well, are unstable in the presence of freshly
developed silver filaments of the chemically formed photographic image.
The silver from the complexes is deposited upon these silver filaments,
thickening the filaments slightly but not materially increasing their lightstopping
power (covering power). The deposition is accelerated by the
presence of the silver particles of the image, and the most silver filaments
occur in the high densities of the image formed in the first developer. Thus,
unexposed or undevelopable silver halide crystals in this area are dissolved
away, leaving almost no silver halide for subsequent development to form
the positive image. In this way a combination of chemical and physical
development in the first developer achieves a desired fogfree result that
cannot be obtained by exposure alone."

Plus permanganate bleach desensitizes all silver halides. The subsequent metabisulfite bath acts also as a sensitizer but then the original grain structure is lost (along with the negative image). In fact the grain is finer in a reversal slide than in a negative.

koraks · Apr 13, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
Plus permanganate bleach desensitizes all silver halides. The subsequent metabisulfite bath acts also as a sensitizer

I don't think so. The metabisulfite is a clearing bath to get rid of the traces of permanganate.

My comment btw was a bit of a joke; you said the silver halide structure in a B&W slide is different from a negative. A processed slide or negative does not contain any silver halide anymore. It's a metallic silver image. You meant to say something like the grain structure of the films being different. Sure thing. For many reasons.

Thanks for the quotes nonetheless; they're a bit generic and don't really explain the differences in image structure, although it's a starting point. Also, you might consider inserting a reference so it's clear where you took them from.

Ivo Stunga · Apr 14, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
No fixing bath?
Was it the culprit of the emulsion softening?

Permanganate bleach can indeed ruin some films, but one can manipulate its concentration to avoid it.

Alessandro Serrao said:
That is, in the last instance, one must use only films that are designed to withstand a permanganic acid bleach step.

Not quite so. Some films are just more robust. The rest can be made to work. I have reversed pretty much every other film out there and all can be made to work well with permanganate bleach. All.

ChrisGalway said:
"I would not fix after you have Bleached for a longer time, the constant changes in PH level can indeed soften the emulsion. So basically when you Bleach the film out there is no no need for this extra fix and the emulsion damage should be solved."

It's the bleach that softens things - all subsequent steps can either work for or against further softening. Although some say that fixing isn't required in slide making, I strongly disagree - based on evidence/comparisons I've made.
When I leave my slides unfixed they come out subpar - often too dense and with a slight warm tone. Fixing solves that and produces consistent, clean results.
If there'd be nothing for the fixer to do, the slides wouldn't change after fix, but they do and I like to be thorough. You wouldn't leave negs unfixed, I wouldn't leave my slides unfixed. Especially considering that they're often the final form ready for projection. I'd like that shit to be as stable as possible.

ChrisGalway said:
Thanks Alessandro, it now makes sense why I had these problems with Pan F and FP4.

I bleach pretty much all my films with 1/3 dilute permanganate bleach to avoid emulsion damage, works like a charm and even on the softest emulsions, like Foma. Bleach time being 4-6 minutes with constant agitation.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 14, 2024

koraks said:
I don't think so. The metabisulfite is a clearing bath to get rid of the traces of permanganate.

My comment btw was a bit of a joke; you said the silver halide structure in a B&W slide is different from a negative. A processed slide or negative does not contain any silver halide anymore. It's a metallic silver image. You meant to say something like the grain structure of the films being different. Sure thing. For many reasons.

Thanks for the quotes nonetheless; they're a bit generic and don't really explain the differences in image structure, although it's a starting point. Also, you might consider inserting a reference so it's clear where you took them from.

The quotes are taken from Grant&Haist Modern Photographic Processing.
The differences in silver halide composition and structure, after the bleach phase, are a direct consequence of the silver halide solvent action in the first developer and the bleach itself.

About the clearing bath:
"The strong oxidizing compounds used in bleach baths attack the sites for
latent image formation in the residual silver halide to be used for forming
the positive image. As a result, this silver halide is of very low light
sensitivity. The presence of sulfite ions in the clearing bath restores some
of the light sensitivity of the silver halide, apparently by etching away some
of the surface silver halide to reveal subsurface sites for latent image formation.
These internal sites were protected from the destructive action of the
bleaching compound."

koraks · Apr 14, 2024

Thanks @Alessandro Serrao
I guess my joke didn't register. It's ok. Maybe another time.

PS: think for a moment what the term "clearing bath" might denote.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 14, 2024

koraks said:
Thanks @Alessandro Serrao
I guess my joke didn't register. It's ok. Maybe another time.

This time I've specified "after the bleach phase".
Infact, after the bleach phase, there are still silver halides. Otherwise a positive image can't be formed and there wouldn't be the necessity of a second developer bath...

koraks:

PS: think for a moment what the term "clearing bath" might denote.

"The subsequent metabisulfite bath acts also as a sensitizer". That's what I wrote.

koraks · Apr 14, 2024

Alright Alessandro.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 14, 2024

Ivo Stunga said:
Permanganate bleach can indeed ruin some films, but one can manipulate its concentration to avoid it.

Not quite so. Some films are just more robust. The rest can be made to work. I have reversed pretty much every other film out there and all can be made to work well with permanganate bleach. All.

It's the bleach that softens things - all subsequent steps can either work for or against further softening. Although some say that fixing isn't required in slide making, I strongly disagree - based on evidence/comparisons I've made.
When I leave my slides unfixed they come out subpar - often too dense and with a slight warm tone. Fixing solves that and produces consistent, clean results.
If there'd be nothing for the fixer to do, the slides wouldn't change after fix, but they do and I like to be thorough. You wouldn't leave negs unfixed, I wouldn't leave my slides unfixed. Especially considering that they're often the final form ready for projection. I'd like that shit to be as stable as possible.

I bleach pretty much all my films with 1/3 dilute permanganate bleach to avoid emulsion damage, works like a charm and even on the softest emulsions, like Foma. Bleach time being 4-6 minutes with constant agitation.

Ivo, I know what you mean.
Back in 2005 I discovered that using all the solutions at the very same temperature and bisulfate to acidify the bleach could avoid emulsion damage. I tried also diluiting the permanganate more but sometimes I got underbleached slides.

Ilford reversal process bleach

According to experiences of Jordan W. (thanks for his response anyway), bleach recipe suggested by Ilford in its reversal process description (http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/reversal_web.pdf) softens film emulsion very badly.<br><br>What about the potassium permanganate + s...

www.photo.net

ChrisGalway · Apr 14, 2024

Alessandro Serrao said:
Regarding Bellini: it's an italian company and I live in Italy. It's not that a praised manufactured here, italians buy more Adox, Ilford and the likes instead of Bellini chemistry.
They states they're able to reproduce Kodak chemistry: i highly doubt it since Kodak chemistry it's trade secret (I mean the real packaging content - not the general formulas that are free to anyone). Hence I don't trust Bellini chemistry and I don't like their approach to reuse over and over the working solutions, I don't like the fact that datas lack about development time (ex Hydrofen, RDL, EuroHC etc...), they rarely gives shelf life dataof their products, and the MSDSs should be open to everyone, not available only upon request.

I've been using the Bellini 7-bath E6 kit for the past year (ever since Tetenal's 4-bath disappeared) and found it to be very reliable. I only re-use the solutions to 50-70% of their stated limits, but it works well with little or no decrease in image quality. They also provide a lot of info on storage lifetimes etc.

DeletedAcct1 · Apr 14, 2024

ChrisGalway said:
I've been using the Bellini 7-bath E6 kit for the past year (ever since Tetenal's 4-bath disappeared) and found it to be very reliable. I only re-use the solutions to 50-70% of their stated limits, but it works well with little or no decrease in image quality. They also provide a lot of info on storage lifetimes etc.

For truth's sake Bellini actually doesn't provide shelf life data, see here: https://www.bellinifoto.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/E6_scheda-tecnica-2.pdf

Reversal Processing of 120 size Rollei Superpan 200 in the Adox Scale Reversal Kit

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Reversal Processing of 120 size Rollei Superpan 200 in the Adox Scale Reversal Kit

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