Just a minute here gentlemen. Isn't this paper called Revere Platinum? Is it or is it not being marketed as a paper specifically tailored to the needs of the Platinum printer? Why is it gelatin coated? Why is it alkali? Why all this hoop jumping? I think someone somwhere is pulling somebodys leg somehow...
David
Dave, have you tried Stan's suggestion yet?
Fair questions. My expectation is that the paper should perform *at least* as well as COT320 or Platine. For me, those provide a dmax of 1.4-1.6, coat easily with no Tween, and don't require acidification or any fancy humidification regime in my workspace which is typically 50% RH.
My paper is still on order but my takeaway thus far: it would have been desirable to solicit more testing so the paper could have been exposed to lots of workflows in a lot of different environments. I'll bet we all would have jumped at the opportunity to test and report if we had been provided with 10 8x10 sheets or even had the opportunity to purchase 25 sheets of 8x10.
Francesco: it's not too late to double back and do this kind of testing.
We would sure like to see this paper get it right ...
Just a minute here gentlemen. Isn't this paper called Revere Platinum? Is it or is it not being marketed as a paper specifically tailored to the needs of the Platinum printer? Why is it gelatin coated? Why is it alkali? Why all this hoop jumping? I think someone somwhere is pulling somebodys leg somehow...
David
Fair questions. My expectation is that the paper should perform *at least* as well as COT320 or Platine. For me, those provide a dmax of 1.4-1.6, coat easily with no Tween, and don't require acidification or any fancy humidification regime in my workspace which is typically 50% RH.
My paper is still on order but my takeaway thus far: it would have been desirable to solicit more testing so the paper could have been exposed to lots of workflows in a lot of different environments. I'll bet we all would have jumped at the opportunity to test and report if we had been provided with 10 8x10 sheets or even had the opportunity to purchase 25 sheets of 8x10.
Francesco: it's not too late to double back and do this kind of testing.
We would sure like to see this paper get it right ...
I really want anybody mislead the point. Nobody said Revere Platinum is coated. Should you read this somewhere or somebody told you this is pulling your leg. For sure.
As it concerns me, I wrote the paper has an internal sizing and a surface sizing, exactly as all the paper you mentioned here, except Rives BFK which has only the internal one. Also our Revere Printmaking range is similar to BFK. All the others, Platine included, has a surface sizing. If Arches doesn't tell you, I do.
Surface sizing differs completely from coating. You make a surface sizing through a part of the paper machine named size-press where you put a solution (3-4% in water) of sizing material. Paper passes through this bath and gets sized on surface. This allows a better strongness of paper when kept in water.
The paper we developed (first batch on march 2011) would like, as I wrote, to be tailored for these particular users. To do that we need, as tailors, take the measures.
I explain with an example: to me, as a papermaker, having a ph 7.3 means a neutral ph. I'd like to know if for you is the same. If not I can guarantee that next batch ph will be lower. I am here with maximum respect to understand everybody's position.
And, of course, I will accept any opinion and thank for that. Moreover, I never guarantee that this paper is better of any other. To me, as I wrote, is a work in progress and what I had as a feed-back (from many other first users) is quite promising. But we know we need to improve the product and having a great result with the maximum users.
Kindest regards
Francesco Natali
Thanks for explaining this Francesco. Can i ask you what you believe this problem some of us are having is? I would be happy to send you samples of the sheets i have coated that have the spotting/clumps together with my coating formula. I cant speak for everyone but i would imagine that the majority of people who would like to use this paper would be coating using a palladium rich formula as opposed to platinum rich. As Clay pointed out a ph of 7.3 regarded as more basic than most platinum printers would prefer.
Francesco,
I think the gelatin that David Hatton mentioned was in reference to what you said in post #69: "surface sizing is vegetal gelatine. Mass sizing is Aquapel." He probably meant to say sizing rather than coating.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say you suspect "iron in water" as a possible source of problems. Pt/Pd is an iron-based process, the sensitizer is Ferric Oxalate, so by it's nature there is iron in the water. If you mean, iron in the tap water used for washing and possibly clearing, I think that is irrelevant since the problem manifests itself at the coating stage.
Finally, thanks for participating in this discussion. I'm sure we all want to find reasonable solutions to the issues that some of us are having with this new paper. There are at least 2 or 3 here who don't seem to be having any of the problems that some of the rest of us are having, and without resorting to extreme measures, so I think there is a good chance of success.
~ Keith
Sorry, I did not specify. I meant iron in our water, therefore iron in the paper.
From what you write I guess that it was a stupid idea anyway.
...
Francesco
Something about the gelatin issue: I think "vegetable gelatin" is not the same stuff as (animal) "gelatin", I personally took it as agar agar or starch... Francesco can you please clarify? Plus, why two different compounds for internal (mass?) and surface sizing?
TIA,
Loris.
(BTW, If it's agar agar or starch, I don't think it would be detrimental to the - real / pure - platinum process. OTOH, animal gelatin is definitely not recommended for pure platinum.)
Francesco,
I think the gelatin that David Hatton mentioned was in reference to what you said in post #69: "surface sizing is vegetal gelatine. Mass sizing is Aquapel." He probably meant to say sizing rather than coating.
~ Keith
Yesterday I've printed again with that paper and the results were great with a dMax of 1.56.
Not any pre-tratment was applied, only a slight humidification and tuned for my usual values. Brush was used,no Tween.
My wife is a chemist and yesterday I've asked her to make a test in her lab, concerning the pH of Revere Platinum 300gsm.
The preliminary results showed that the paper has acidic tendency.
The test was made immersing the sample in Millipore water and the measurement made with a professional pH meter previously calibrated for linearity, of course.
To quantify exactly the pH of this revere sample is more difficult because we are not aware of the exact definitions to calculate that. Nevertheless, what is important here is that these Revere samples are not alkaline.
The results are different from the ones I've got with Abbey pH Pen that showed a nearly neutral reading.
Yesterday I've printed again with that paper and the results were great with a dMax of 1.56.
Not any pre-tratment was applied, only a slight humidification and tuned for my usual values. Brush was used,no Tween.
Revere Spots Problem
I ordered 100 sheets of Revere Platinum 300 gsm from Bostick-Sullivan and I'm experimenting the same problem that Davec.
With some sheets - not all of them - many brown spots suddenly appear just at the end of my coating session (lesser than a minute).
My sensitizer is : 20 drops ferric oxalate, 20 palladium, 5 oxalic acid 10%, 4 tween 20. It's the same solution I use with Arches and Bergger without a problem. I use a Richeson brush.
I noticed also a strange thing : my solution makes bubbles when I coat (with or without the oxalic acid 10% solution I use to dilute a bit my sensitizer). Is this paper chalk buffered?
With a bad Revere sheet, I experiment :
- lot of spots
- the paper is much slower (underexposed with my usual time)
- it doesn't clear well (EDTA, citric acid, sodium sulfite)
With a good sheet :
- no spots
- perfect exposition
- clears quick and well
On the final print, the brown spots became like pale yellow-green greasy spots. Just awful (take a look at the pictures).
I'm sad because this paper looks very nice. :-(
Some pictures :
Coating :
http://galerie-cabestan.com/images/revere-problem/revere-platinum-01.jpg
http://galerie-cabestan.com/images/revere-problem/revere-platinum-02.jpg
Final print, with sun behind :
http://galerie-cabestan.com/images/revere-problem/revere-platinum-03.jpg
Bad Revere sheet :
http://galerie-cabestan.com/images/revere-problem/revere-platinum-04.jpg
Good Revere sheet :
http://galerie-cabestan.com/images/revere-problem/revere-platinum-05.jpg
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