Revere Platinum - WINNING!

Solarize · Jun 7, 2011

Davec said:
Can Legion paper supply European Customers direct or is there a distributor in Europe that stocks it? Shipping on 100 sheets is $209!

Ouch.

I've emailed Legion, and it seems currently we are out of luck. Global Art Supplies are the UK rep and they only carry Stonehenge, although there is hope they will stock more options, including Revere, in the future. There was no mention of any other EU rep, and I was pointed toward Dead Link Removed
I'm not sure how they will compare on shipping. I will email them tomorrow, but anything close to $200 and I'll really be hoping for a distributor closer to home.

Perhaps a few emails to Global Art Supplies might sway it.

Davec101 · Jun 15, 2011

Problems with Revere

I am in the process of placing a large order (400-500) sheets of Revere from Magnani, the Mill in Italy that makes it. This seems to be the most cost effective way of ordering the paper in Europe as to ship a similar size order from the U.S would cost in excess of $1000. The catch is that to buy from the mill the minimum order is 400 sheets. Anyway I mention this as it is crucial that I establish that this paper works consistently.

My order from B&S came two days ago and I have been testing the paper ever since, initially I was impressed by the dmax, which as reported is similar to the older batches of Platine (1.45+ dmax) however over the last day things have started to go wrong. I don’t want to sound alarmist as this problem could be resolved with more testing however I am left quite disappointed, with what potentially could be a good paper.

If you see the attached image, these large spots have started to appear when I have finished coating. This spots remain present when the final print has been processed and dried. I have yet to establish if this is because of adding two much tween 20, however I am only using 2 drops per 10x8 as was mentioned in the OP by Kerik. The paper definitely needs tween as without the final print comes with small speckles indicating that the sensitizer has not been absorbed properly. These also could just be a few bad sheets of paper and i will open up the other packs i have and try them.

I will endeavour to track down this problem and I hope it is resolvable. I would be interested to hear from others who have gone through a good number of sheets of this paper to see what there experience is.

( I think it is worth noting that John Purcell paper will not be supplying U.K customers with Revere as they deemed the test samples they recieved as having to much 'dirt' in them. I spoke to Magnani about this and they did say that because the test run was so small increased amounts of dirt in the paper can occur. They told me that this problem was not present in the new larger run that was supplied to Legion Paper)

R Shaffer · Jun 15, 2011

That's really a bummer Dave.

While I'll defer to those with more experience in these matters, it looks like the quality control may be an issue. I've been watching this thread with keen interest and plan to get some of this paper with my next chemical order.

....Jeff.... · Jun 15, 2011

Dave,

Interesting you should bring this up. I have only been experimenting with the paper for a few days to calibrate my workflow, but I did experience something similar yesterday, though not nearly as severe as your example. After coating a sheet I noticed some small spots similar to those in your image. There were between a dozen or two, primarily clumped towards one end of the coated area. At first I kind of thought they were balled up fibers that had come loose during the coating process, as I have seen with Platine, but they couldn't be brushed off prior to exposure and I wasn't sure what exactly to attribute it to. Of the spots that I saw on the coated sheet, only one actually appears in the final print. I didn't think too much about it at the time as I was only testing and only the one spot persisted after processing. I just chalked it up to a problem with my coating technique for that particular print. I have only used a handful of sheets so far, and this was the only instance that I specifically recall having an issue. With any luck this anomaly won't be too widespread or frequent. I'd also be curious to hear if this problem has been creeping into other workers prints.

Manuel G Teixeira · Jun 15, 2011

Davec said:
My order from B&S came two days ago and I have been testing the paper ever since, initially I was impressed by the dmax, which as reported is similar to the older batches of Platine (1.45+ dmax) however over the last day things have started to go wrong. I dont want to sound alarmist as this problem could be resolved with more testing however I am left quite disappointed, with what potentially could be a good paper.

If you see the attached image, these large spots have started to appear when I have finished coating. This spots remain present when the final print has been processed and dried. I have yet to establish if this is because of adding two much tween 20, however I am only using 2 drops per 10x8 as was mentioned in the OP by Kerik. The paper definitely needs tween as without the final print comes with small speckles indicating that the sensitizer has not been absorbed properly. These also could just be a few bad sheets of paper and i will open up the other packs i have and try them.

I will endeavour to track down this problem and I hope it is resolvable. I would be interested to hear from others who have gone through a good number of sheets of this paper to see what there experience is.
/QUOTE]

David.

I didn't notice that phenomena during my tests, nevertheless, some mottling happened with the 145gsm version.
With the 300 gsm Revere, the results were different, and the tones turned very smooth, with an amazing RFB Dmax(1.60)!
I suppose you used the coating rod with that sample ?!? I always used brushes with my Revere testing.

jkschreiber · Jun 15, 2011

I picked up some Revere from B&S in Santa Fe 2 weeks ago. My initial tests were definitely underwhelming given my expectations based on Kerik's initial comments. Being out here in very dry New Mexico, I thought that lack of humidity might be the cause, but raising RH in my darkroom from 35% to 70% only made things worse.

I have tried several other variations as well:

With and without Tween - with is better
Both sides of the paper - back side is better
Lightweight and Heavyweight versions - lightweight is better
Double coating - increase in Dmax from ~ 1.3 to ~1.4
Brush and tube coating - no appreciable difference

Somewhere I had gotten the idea that this paper would not be buffered, but when I checked it with the pH pen I found it to be strongly alkaline. Acidification in oxalic acid helped slightly in the smoothness of the denser tones, but exaggerated an overall mottling/speckling like reported by Dave above. Increasing ambient humidity had a similar effect with regard to mottling.

Late last week I called Kerik to see if he had tried out the production run yet. He did some tests over the weekend and reported that he is getting results as good as with the pre-production samples that his initial report was based on. He also said that both are alkaline so I guess that eliminates a change in pH as the prime cause of (some of) our problems.

I also called Dana last week and he said that they had not yet tested the paper in-house. He said he would let me know how it was working for him but I have not yet heard back. I was going to wait until I had heard back from Dana before making any comments here, but since Dave is having the same problems that I'm having ....

Finally, as a control, I tested a known good piece of Platine side by side with the Revere to see if maybe the problems could be not caused by the paper but by something else. The Platine looks absolutely yummy. There is definitely something funky going on with the Revere, at least in my working environment.

On the plus side, I really like the texture of the paper surface, which reminds me of the Simili Japon that was my favorite while it worked.

~ Keith

Davec101 · Jun 16, 2011

....Jeff.... said:
Dave,

Interesting you should bring this up. I have only been experimenting with the paper for a few days to calibrate my workflow, but I did experience something similar yesterday, though not nearly as severe as your example. After coating a sheet I noticed some small spots similar to those in your image. There were between a dozen or two, primarily clumped towards one end of the coated area. At first I kind of thought they were balled up fibers that had come loose during the coating process, as I have seen with Platine, but they couldn't be brushed off prior to exposure and I wasn't sure what exactly to attribute it to. Of the spots that I saw on the coated sheet, only one actually appears in the final print. I didn't think too much about it at the time as I was only testing and only the one spot persisted after processing. I just chalked it up to a problem with my coating technique for that particular print. I have only used a handful of sheets so far, and this was the only instance that I specifically recall having an issue. With any luck this anomaly won't be too widespread or frequent. I'd also be curious to hear if this problem has been creeping into other workers prints.

I think you describe exactly the same thing i experienced, I too initially thought that it was balled fibers that had been can happen when coating, i went to brush them off but they looked like they were imbeded in the paper. Once i finish my final coating pass the coat looks good and then before you eyes these spots start to appear. For me it is quite random, some coated sheets have a few clumps of irregular spots whereas others they are quite a problem.The randomness worries me, primarily I am printing 20x24 inch prints at the moment and this issue could prove costly with this paper.

Ebbs · Jun 16, 2011

Davec said:
Once i finish my final coating pass the coat looks good and then before you eyes these spots start to appear.

Well that answers my question. I was wondering if you could detect the spots before you coat, now that you know you’re looking for something. I tested a few sheets last week and didn’t notice any spots. I will be doing some more printing this weekend and will defiantly be looking for any. Have you developed any that had the spots? What do they look like after printed?

Matt

Davec101 · Jun 16, 2011

Ebbs said:
Well that answers my question. I was wondering if you could detect the spots before you coat, now that you know you’re looking for something. I tested a few sheets last week and didn’t notice any spots. I will be doing some more printing this weekend and will defiantly be looking for any. Have you developed any that had the spots? What do they look like after printed?

Matt

Its hard to tell at the moment, having a good look at the new batch of Revere in the light it does look to have a few paper abnormalities that i dont see in other papers such as Cot 320. They look like little grease spots, this might suggest something to do with the sizing of the paper.

I plan to photograph the paper before and after and mark the areas of concern to see if they develop out over the next few days and report back. I dont know yet but it could be a tween issue with it reacting with the paper somehow as i have never seen this happen before.

Manuel G Teixeira · Jun 16, 2011

Davec said:
Its hard to tell at the moment, having a good look at the new batch of Revere in the light it does look to have a few paper abnormalities that i dont see in other papers such as Cot 320. They look like little grease spots, this might suggest something to do with the sizing of the paper.

I plan to photograph the paper before and after and mark the areas of concern to see if they develop out over the next few days and report back. I dont know yet but it could be a tween issue with it reacting with the paper somehow as i have never seen this happen before.

David
I've inspected the Revere Paper (both 145gsm and 300gsm) and I didn't notice anything wrong.
I've looked to several sheets of COT320(batches #5213 and #5214/1) in the same light and didn't find any significant differences, apart from some tiny black spots embedded in the COT fibers.

Kerik · Jun 16, 2011

Bummer to hear people are having problems. In the additional tests that Keith referred to, I did not use Tween and got results much like my initial tests. I have 25 sheets of each paper and will be working with it much more later this month. I'm hoping things don't go south... So far I'm getting rich blacks (no reflection densitometer), very smooth tones and a beautiful warm color with pure palladium and warm potassium oxalate. Good luck all!!! I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Manuel G Teixeira · Jun 16, 2011

Revere Platinum 300gsm after coating:
Brush
No Tween 20

Dana Sullivan · Jun 16, 2011

I'm standing in line for the tea cup ride at Disneyland, so ill be brief! We did about 8 11x14 prints on 300gsm revere before I left for California, with great results. No mottling, speckling or black dots for me. Same great density and smooth tones as the pre production run. More testing g when I'm back in Santa Fe next week.

Davec101 · Jun 16, 2011

Manuel G Teixeira said:
Revere Platinum 300gsm after coating:
Brush
No Tween 20

I don’t think I or a few others are disputing that you can get a clean coat and good final print with Revere, however for me personally if I am going to spend $1500 on a batch paper I want to make absolutely sure this paper is reliable, from what it sounds no one person has actually gone through a 25 sheet pack yet, so its really to early to tell. I am just putting this information out there as an early adopter of the paper and really hope that i can work out whats going on with my initial batch of paper.

costelvis · Jun 17, 2011

From Magnani

Good morning everybody,
I introduce myself, my name is Francesco Natali and I am the Sales Manager of Cartiere Magnani.
I am carefully following your thread because I am interested in having a professional feed-back on this technical paper.
I have to inform you that this is a work in progress, what you are now testing is our first real production of the paper. We developed this paper together with Michael Ginsburg from Legion Paper Corp. and our aim is to have a reliable paper consistent, effective and also cost efficient. That's why we are so interested in your results.

I just wanted to thank everybody sent their opinion and testing results. The thanksgiving is forward also for further opinions.

Only thing I can say to you regarding the production is that the batch (22x30, 30x44 in 300 gsm., 22x30 in 145) is a whole, there "should" be no difference between a sheet and another (I mean no difference in mechanical features, chemical, ph, fibres refining and mostly surface sizing).

All the best to everybody
Francesco

Davec101 · Jun 17, 2011

costelvis said:
Good morning everybody,
I introduce myself, my name is Francesco Natali and I am the Sales Manager of Cartiere Magnani.
I am carefully following your thread because I am interested in having a professional feed-back on this technical paper.
I have to inform you that this is a work in progress, what you are now testing is our first real production of the paper. We developed this paper together with Michael Ginsburg from Legion Paper Corp. and our aim is to have a reliable paper consistent, effective and also cost efficient. That's why we are so interested in your results.

I just wanted to thank everybody sent their opinion and testing results. The thanksgiving is forward also for further opinions.

Only thing I can say to you regarding the production is that the batch (22x30, 30x44 in 300 gsm., 22x30 in 145) is a whole, there "should" be no difference between a sheet and another (I mean no difference in mechanical features, chemical, ph, fibres refining and mostly surface sizing).

All the best to everybody
Francesco

Thank you Francesco for posting, I think a lot of us come with different needs and expectations of Revere Platinum and to be able to have an open line of communication with you regarding the paper early on is really useful for all of us.

Davec101 · Jun 17, 2011

costelvis said:
Good morning everybody,

Only thing I can say to you regarding the production is that the batch (22x30, 30x44 in 300 gsm., 22x30 in 145) is a whole, there "should" be no difference between a sheet and another (I mean no difference in mechanical features, chemical, ph, fibres refining and mostly surface sizing).

All the best to everybody
Francesco

Just one point i would like to know at the moment as there seems to be some slight confusion, could you confirm what the actual ph is of the paper is or should be. Various tests including mine with a ph pen (see attached) indicate that this paper is at least above 6.8 i.e acid free (purple)

costelvis · Jun 17, 2011

Dear David, our laboratory test reported a value of 7.2-7.3. Do you think it is something that can affect stability of the printing?

Davec101 · Jun 17, 2011

costelvis said:
Dear David, our laboratory test reported a value of 7.2-7.3. Do you think it is something that can affect stability of the printing?

Hi Francesco

From my understanding, papers in the past that have worked well with platinum/palladium printing have had an acid to acid/neutral ph. Arches Platine was Acid/Neutral as is Cot 320 (see attached, yellow/colourless reading indicating less than 6.8 ph i.e acidic) ) I know that the platinum printing process likes acidic conditions to start with, this is the reason why people who work with papers such as Rives BFK for example, a paper which is buffered, requires a pre-acid bath for it to be useable.
I am unsure as to whether a ph of 7.3 is an issue and will let others with more exacting knowledge regarding paper ph comment on whether this accounts for my problems, although I suspect it is not.

clay · Jun 17, 2011

I'd like to jump in here with thoughts about the varying results people seem to be getting with this paper.

First, the pH of a good platinum/palladium paper ideally should be either neutral or slightly acidic because the platinum and palladium chemistry itself is acidic. All the experienced printers on this thread can probably share tales of soaking 'archivally buffered' papers in trays of oxalic acid to neutralize the buffers and make it suitable for the process.

In that regard, I wonder if the differences people seem to be experiencing with this paper could possibly be to slight variations in the ferric oxalate chemistry being used? I know that Kerik and I both use a formula for the ferric oxalate sensitizer that is basically 27g ferric, 4g of oxalic acid and 2g of EDTA in 100ml of water. The oxalic acid makes the sensitizer slightly faster, and I wonder if in this case, it might also be serving to sort of acidify-as-you-coat the paper.

Another variable could be the post development wash water. I know Kerik enjoys nice neutral tap water at his place in California. When I lived in Houston, the water had a pH of 8-8.5! I learned the hard way that dumping a freshly developed print in a tray of plain tap water was a recipe for getting anemic blacks in my prints, not to mention making it virtually impossible to clear properly. I always make sure that my prints never touch anything with an alkaline pH until they are fully cleared.

Davec101 · Jun 17, 2011

clay said:
I'd like to jump in here with thoughts about the varying results people seem to be getting with this paper.

First, the pH of a good platinum/palladium paper ideally should be either neutral or slightly acidic because the platinum and palladium chemistry itself is acidic. All the experienced printers on this thread can probably share tales of soaking 'archivally buffered' papers in trays of oxalic acid to neutralize the buffers and make it suitable for the process.

In that regard, I wonder if the differences people seem to be experiencing with this paper could possibly be to slight variations in the ferric oxalate chemistry being used? I know that Kerik and I both use a formula for the ferric oxalate sensitizer that is basically 27g ferric, 4g of oxalic acid and 2g of EDTA in 100ml of water. The oxalic acid makes the sensitizer slightly faster, and I wonder if in this case, it might also be serving to sort of acidify-as-you-coat the paper.

Another variable could be the post development wash water. I know Kerik enjoys nice neutral tap water at his place in California. When I lived in Houston, the water had a pH of 8-8.5! I learned the hard way that dumping a freshly developed print in a tray of plain tap water was a recipe for getting anemic blacks in my prints, not to mention making it virtually impossible to clear properly. I always make sure that my prints never touch anything with an alkaline pH until they are fully cleared.

Thanks Clay for your valuable contribution. I have recently purchased a ph meter as I am wanting my studio to have various conditions such as ph monitored and under control. You maybe onto to something regarding the Ferric Oxalate, for me personally i have started to add distilled water with a ph of 5 to make the pre-measured dry 25ml bottles of FO supplied by B&S, having printed about 30 prints on Cot 320 in the last couple of weeks I have not had any issues with this formula, however I will definitely make some new FO with yours and Keriks formulation in the next few days to see whether this makes a difference as apart from the platinum/palladium chemistry from B&S which is usually consistant this is the only difference we have with our coating forumlas.

Manuel G Teixeira · Jun 17, 2011

Davec said:
Just one point i would like to know at the moment as there seems to be some slight confusion, could you confirm what the actual ph is of the paper is or should be. Various tests including mine with a ph pen (see attached) indicate that this paper is at least above 6.8 i.e acid free (purple)

David,

Your post is very interesting because the tests I've made with the ABBEY pH PEN in the Revere samples are different from yours. The colour I've got was not purple but a warm grey. Yellow would mean clearly acidic.
Perhaps this could explain the different results we are getting.
Were your tests made with samples or production run ?

Michael Ginsburg told me that these pH pens can give very inaccurate results.
My wife is a chemist and I'll discuss this question with her.

Concerning the "open line of communication " with the Maganani, I strongly agree with you and no praise will be enough to define the kind and impeccable support I received both from Michael Ginsburg (Legion Paper) and Francesco Natali (Magnani Mill). I'm sure this paper has the potential to be a reference for platinum printing.

Davec101 · Jun 17, 2011

Manuel G Teixeira said:
David,
Your post is very interesting because the tests I've made with the ABBEY pH PEN in the Revere samples are different from yours. The colour I've got was not purple but a warm grey. Yellow would mean clearly acidic.
Perhaps this could explain the different results we are getting.
Were your tests made with samples or production run ?
.

I have the pre-production test sheets supplied to John Purcell paper by Magnani who are based in the U.K and also the first full production run from B&S, both indicating a purple response to the ph pen (made by Lineco) this seems to be similar to the lab results at Magnani of 7.3.

Loris Medici · Jun 17, 2011

As a note: Apart from differences in chemistry and printing workflow, the source (reseller) and the storage conditions of the paper in a. freight / b. warehouse / c. store / d. your working environment may also cause problems... (Contamination etc.) Dave's sample image (of the coated paper) makes me think there was a sizing inconsistency or some kind of contamination (that - maybe - compromised the sizing or did something else) in his batch. ???

Manuel G Teixeira · Jun 17, 2011

Loris,

You forgot to mention the Platinum Gods !

Revere Platinum - WINNING!

Solarize

Davec101

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