Report: Film at Photokina (part one ;-) )

[xtolsniffer]

Fantastic effort, thanks so much for keeping us updated.

 

[Roger Cole]

Thanks for the information on the Precisa. It came a little too late to prevent my ordering five rolls off eBay last night. Still, the price was really good including free shipping, so it worked out as the same or less than I would have paid for Provia, and Provia is excellent film. I'd just prefer Astia for general shooting if I could get it.

I'd all but quit shooting slides myself preferring prints for most output and the greater exposure lattitude of print film, bu when Kodak announced the cancellation of their E6 films and with things not looking good for it at Fuji I decided to make this the "year of shooting slides" and laid in a stock of Kodak and have bought some Provia 400x as needed as well. I now have more slide film in my fridge than color negative.

 

[Roger Cole]

No need to rush. I for one cannot thank you enough for your efforts.

+1!

 

[batwister]

- The sales of Fujichrome slide films in Germany during the last 12 months have been stabilised, even with a small increase of 2-3%. And that despite the huge hoarding of Kodak slide film which happened in the last months in the German market. That is an encouraging signal.

It's as if the threat of discontinuation is Kodak's only form of marketing. This is the only time the public is made aware film still exists.

More professionals and artists still using film need to sing its praises publicly. Sponsorship from Kodak would help here. Every photography degree needs to encourage film use and have mandatory darkroom classes, Kodak could sponsor this too, providing materials.

 

[RattyMouse]

It's as if the threat of discontinuation is Kodak's only form of marketing. This is the only time the public is made aware film still exists.

More professionals and artists still using film need to sing its praises publicly. Sponsorship from Kodak would help here. Every photography degree needs to encourage film use and have mandatory darkroom classes, Kodak could sponsor this too, providing materials.

Kodak is on death's door. They have no money to sponsor anything.

 

[Roger Cole]

It's as if the threat of discontinuation is Kodak's only form of marketing. This is the only time the public is made aware film still exists.

More professionals and artists still using film need to sing its praises publicly. Sponsorship from Kodak would help here. Every photography degree needs to encourage film use and have mandatory darkroom classes, Kodak could sponsor this too, providing materials.

I had a friend I was visiting this past weekend ask how much film I used. I made some sort of vague answer because it varies so much and she said something about "then what?" I was really confused but just said "then I buy more." "But they don't make it anymore." Head-desk.

 

[RattyMouse]

It's as if the threat of discontinuation is Kodak's only form of marketing. This is the only time the public is made aware film still exists.

I swear I dont understand how anyone can support Kodak. They are doing everything possible to kill film. The amount of boneheaded decisions is astonishing. Even the "sale" of their film division is so half assed.

Fujifilm has come out in total support of film recently at Photokina. Why more people dont rally behind a company that actually cares about film, actually is fighting for film, and has demonstrable commitment to film is beyond me.

Shot today: 2 rolls of Reala, 2 rolls of 400H 2 packs of Instax mini (my son's contribution).

 

[Roger Cole]

Ratty, it's pretty simple:

1. Kodak has Tri-X, which I know better and like better overall than any other film (though I'm sure I could get along with HP5+ just fine, I like what Tri-X in Diafine does when I need speed but not quite TM...er, Delta 3200 speed.

2. Kodak has TMX and TMY-2. Fuji Acros competes with but is different from TMX. More important is TMY-2. Fuji has nothing (right now) in that speed range in black and white. Ilford is the natural competition in B&W, not Fuji. If they'd start making Delta 400 in sheets again I'd almost certainly switch for my 4x5. But they don't, so I haven't.

3. Kodak has superb color negative films unrivaled by anything available from Fuji. As far as I've found none of the Fuji 160 variants are available in the US any more, Reala is ok but no Portra, Fuji 400H looks like a film from decades ago (which may be ok when that's what you want but doesn't compare to Portra 400) and they have nothing even remotely comparable to Ektar. Further, the films they have that are available in this country, Reala and 400H, are not available in sheets.

Fuji has one (excellent) medium speed black and white film in 120 - the promised return of Neopan 400 hasn't appeared yet - and Velvia and Provia in a couple of variants each. They are excellent films, but they are not competitive with TMY, TXT, TXP, Portra or Ektar.

If you want color transparency Fuji has you covered, which is good since they're the only game in town. Likewise if you want a medium speed black and white film with unusual "orthopanchromatic" color response and the least reciprocity failure around, virtually none at usual exposures. But otherwise, they just don't have the products.

 

[brianmquinn]

RattyMouse are you a troll?
You posting are often very unreasonable.
I encourage everyone to read all of the earlier RattyMouse posts.
He has many on many threads.
Then you decide if you want to reply to him.
OR
Maybe I am the Troll?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

No, he's not a troll. Just massively frustrated with Kodak, I think. Same as half of my posts that demonstrate similar frustration, but are also not trolling.

APUG is all about film photography. As such, the people here can't understand why Kodak does not do the common sense things a film manufacturing company would do to increase sales of their film products. I mean, it seems so painfully obvious what needs to happen, but never seems to happen. Except with other film companies.

It's very hard—almost impossible in many cases—for people here to wrap their heads around the fact that Kodak (or at least Kodak's upper management and board of directors) does not want Kodak to be a film company anymore. They have publicly and repeatedly said this to anyone who would listen for over five years now. They want out of film. And introducing new or updated films in the short term does not change that stated long term goal.

I've posted so many links to these public pronouncements by Kodak's management that I've nearly run out of electrons. But all it achieved was to make people mad. They didn't want to hear what Kodak was saying about the direction it was going. So I don't do it anymore.

But think about it for a moment. If Kodak really did want to stay in the film business over the long term, would they have put their film business up for sale? If so, that would be a mighty funny way of showing it...

No, it's just frustration.

Ken

[Edit: OK, just to enjoy one more time being a dead messenger, here's another pretty authoritative Kodak pronouncement (Kodak Continues Progress toward Emergence, 9/28/2012, 7th bullet point, my emphasis):

"Commencement of a process to sell the market-leading Personalized Imaging and Document Imaging businesses, which are not core to Kodak’s future."​

As we all know, Personalized Imaging is film imaging. Now I've used and loved Kodak products my entire life. But for the life of me I don't know how it can be stated any clearer than that. And this long term goal has been utterly consistent for the last five plus years. If it looks to some like Kodak is "doing everything possible to kill film," well, you'll just have to draw your own conclusions...]

 

[RattyMouse]

RattyMouse are you a troll?
You posting are often very unreasonable.
I encourage everyone to read all of the earlier RattyMouse posts.
He has many on many threads.
Then you decide if you want to reply to him.
OR
Maybe I am the Troll?

How many trolls do you know that PAY to join a web site to troll? Hmmm?? Do you even have a brain?

I stand by EVERY word I have posted here at APUG.

By the way, why dont YOU subscribe?

 

[RattyMouse]

Ratty, it's pretty simple:

1. Kodak has Tri-X, which I know better and like better overall than any other film (though I'm sure I could get along with HP5+ just fine, I like what Tri-X in Diafine does when I need speed but not quite TM...er, Delta 3200 speed.

2. Kodak has TMX and TMY-2. Fuji Acros competes with but is different from TMX. More important is TMY-2. Fuji has nothing (right now) in that speed range in black and white. Ilford is the natural competition in B&W, not Fuji. If they'd start making Delta 400 in sheets again I'd almost certainly switch for my 4x5. But they don't, so I haven't.

3. Kodak has superb color negative films unrivaled by anything available from Fuji. As far as I've found none of the Fuji 160 variants are available in the US any more, Reala is ok but no Portra, Fuji 400H looks like a film from decades ago (which may be ok when that's what you want but doesn't compare to Portra 400) and they have nothing even remotely comparable to Ektar. Further, the films they have that are available in this country, Reala and 400H, are not available in sheets.

Fuji has one (excellent) medium speed black and white film in 120 - the promised return of Neopan 400 hasn't appeared yet - and Velvia and Provia in a couple of variants each. They are excellent films, but they are not competitive with TMY, TXT, TXP, Portra or Ektar.

If you want color transparency Fuji has you covered, which is good since they're the only game in town. Likewise if you want a medium speed black and white film with unusual "orthopanchromatic" color response and the least reciprocity failure around, virtually none at usual exposures. But otherwise, they just don't have the products.

Roger, Thanks for your reply. Of course I can understand anyone's personal preference for a specific film. My return to film has me without any particular preference so I gravitate towards Fujifilm and Ilford to some extent because these two companies are seriously committed to film. Kodak is not and is instead totally dismissive of film. I am shooting a lot of 400H this week for the first time so I am interested to see if it really looks like film from decades ago as you say above. I declined to use Porta and instead choose 400H. Probably not the best choice for outdoor street use at night, but I wanted to experiment. I have Reala for daytime use. I wanted to shoot mostly Acros but for the life of me I cannot find it ANYWHERE here in Hong Kong. Supplies have completely dried up. I really like Acros so rather than change films, I am shooting color this trip instead.

 

[RattyMouse]

Great post Ken. Exactly. Kodak is dead set on getting out of the film business and so has totally lost my interest. I rejoined the film shooting world for several reasons. One, I liked the images I was seeing from film shooters and wanted to see what I could do with film. Also, I could see that film's very existence is in trouble and while I am a digital shooter, I wanted to do "my part" to try to keep film going. I want a world where both can exist. So I bought a film camera and started shooting film. I think I have shot 40 rolls or so in the past few months. Not much, but it's 40 more rolls than would have been shot had I not re-joined.

To help keep film going I want to support the companies who wish to remain in the film business. That means Ilford and Fujifilm.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

To help keep film going I want to support the companies who wish to remain in the film business. That means Ilford and Fujifilm.

And don't forget ADOX. Mirko is moving mountains in trying to establish a post-digital, right-sized quality film manufacturing operation. He comes here to APUG and is brutally honest about both his successes and failures. And his ideas for the future. I just wish people were willing to spend more for analog products in general. With more funds there's no telling what he might be able to do.

Ken

 

[nickrapak]

The main difference between Fuji and EK is that Fuji was able to diversify enough that they are financially stable, whereas Kodak wasn't (for many reasons). If EK stock was $100 a share and annual profits were in the billions, Kodak would be able to afford a few thousand dollars to maintain goodwill. When their net loss is almost 800 million, they can't afford to spill out day-old coffee, much less keep coating film that loses money.


P.S. Fuji's discontinued their fair share of films in the past few years. Fans of Neopan 1600, 800Z, FP-100B, 4x5 instant pack films, 64T, Astia, Velvia 100F, and LF Velvia 50 shooters know all too well about Fuji's "demonstrated commitment" to film.

 

[RattyMouse]

The main difference between Fuji and EK is that Fuji was able to diversify enough that they are financially stable, whereas Kodak wasn't (for many reasons). If EK stock was $100 a share and annual profits were in the billions, Kodak would be able to afford a few thousand dollars to maintain goodwill. When their net loss is almost 800 million, they can't afford to spill out day-old coffee, much less keep coating film that loses money.


P.S. Fuji's discontinued their fair share of films in the past few years. Fans of Neopan 1600, 800Z, FP-100B, 4x5 instant pack films, 64T, Astia, Velvia 100F, and LF Velvia 50 shooters know all too well about Fuji's "demonstrated commitment" to film.

Fujifilm is committed to films that people want. Films that dont sell wastes resources for films that do sell. While small groups of individuals might lament the loss of any film, the plain fact is that canceled films do not sell. Kodak's E6 films are a perfect example. You can still find Kodak E6 films even though out of production because they simply do not sell much. A few rolls PER MONTH at most places.

I have no problems with films that dont sell being axed.

 

[Roger Cole]

Roger, Thanks for your reply. Of course I can understand anyone's personal preference for a specific film. My return to film has me without any particular preference so I gravitate towards Fujifilm and Ilford to some extent because these two companies are seriously committed to film. Kodak is not and is instead totally dismissive of film. I am shooting a lot of 400H this week for the first time so I am interested to see if it really looks like film from decades ago as you say above. I declined to use Porta and instead choose 400H. Probably not the best choice for outdoor street use at night, but I wanted to experiment. I have Reala for daytime use. I wanted to shoot mostly Acros but for the life of me I cannot find it ANYWHERE here in Hong Kong. Supplies have completely dried up. I really like Acros so rather than change films, I am shooting color this trip instead.

Reala is pretty good. 400H, well - that may have been a little exaggerated "like a film from decades ago" but it's not Portra 400 which I think is a better film, unless you want a grittier look with more grain, less saturation (that part I like for some stuff - I'd love to find something like the old Agfa Portrait 160) and less accurate color. Examples are easy to find online, but heck, you may find it's just what you wanted.

Bottom line for me is that I can do black and white (probably 70% or more of my work) just fine without Kodak. I can shoot color slides for a while longer anyway with Fuji though I'm still bothered by the loss of Astia, maybe the single best E6 film ever. But in color neg I think Kodak is very good choice. Even if you like Reala and 400H, there's no Fuji competition for Ektar 100.

 

[RattyMouse]

Well, I am certainly interested in how my 400H shots come out. I used to use Fuji's 400 speed color pro film 10 years or so ago. It's been updated since then so I am not sure what to expect. Hopefully it gets through the airport unmolested.

 

[brianmquinn]

How many trolls do you know that PAY to join a web site to troll? Hmmm?? Do you even have a brain?

I stand by EVERY word I have posted here at APUG.

By the way, why don’t YOU subscribe?

Yes, I do have a brain. I also do subscribe.

Do you remember two months ago?
You posted In the Industry New Section on August 4th 2012:
“After more than 10 years away, I SHOT FILM today”
(This was in NO WAY Industry news. But I passed it over at the time as
you are in China and it may be a language issue.)

Now, 2 months later, you are an smarter than all of us?

I do not want to fight. However do not pretend to be a World expert when you are not.

 

[georg16nik]

I swear I dont understand how anyone can support Kodak. They are doing everything possible to kill film. The amount of boneheaded decisions is astonishing. Even the "sale" of their film division is so half assed...

Kodak are still manufacturing products worth buying. Whats wrong with supporting Kodak???
I am not a regular Kodak films user but I shot a box of Kodak films every year..
For most of us, Kodak is not the white collars but the product and the photo engineers and the crew that makes those films.

Most Kodak haters are missing the major point. What happens to Kodak is orchestrated event, its all being paid for, in gold. The global industry does not need Kodak.
The current CEO is the *right* one, the current board of directors is the most *convenient* one.

Shoot Kodak film while You still can.

 

[brianmquinn]

Sorry for my previous post. I have reconsidered and decided that it is not something that belongs on APUG.

 

[Roger Cole]

Most Kodak haters are missing the major point. What happens to Kodak is orchestrated event, its all being paid for, in gold. The global industry does not need Kodak.
The current CEO is the *right* one, the current board of directors is the most *convenient* one.

Shoot Kodak film while You still can.

What are you talking about?

This sounds like pure tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, typically short on details. If you have some real allegations and some evidence, let's hear specifically what you mean and your evidence.

Except for Kodak making good films and we should use them if we like them, which I do and I do.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

There are a lot of people working at Eastman Kodak that are hoping to retain a job in an already depressed part of the country. The decisions are not made by these workers, but by a team of executives who count beans and who haven't exactly developed the best strategy over the years. That's not the fault of the majority of the amazing professionals that work there, churning out the best quality film in the world.

Support the films and products you like to support. Shoot what gives you the most pleasure and the best results, chances are that would be a Kodak emulsion. A photography world without Kodak would be a much poorer one, if you look beyond the politics of it, which has nothing to do with the joy of photography.

I swear I dont understand how anyone can support Kodak. They are doing everything possible to kill film. The amount of boneheaded decisions is astonishing. Even the "sale" of their film division is so half assed.

 

[georg16nik]

What are you talking about?

This sounds like pure tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, typically short on details. If you have some real allegations and some evidence, let's hear specifically what you mean and your evidence.

Except for Kodak making good films and we should use them if we like them, which I do and I do.

Roger, do You follow the lawsuits between Kodak and the numerous, famous asian backed fruit / monkey named companies?

Its a pattern and it goes unfavorably for Kodak in the last decade or so.

 

[Roger Cole]

Nope, nor do I intend to. So I'll say it again - if you do, and if you have some allegations to make, and evidence, make them and show it.

I for one put less than zero stock in eyebrow wagging vague insinuations online without specifics.