Replenishing XTOL developer

[Zathras]

Again, I warn those who are going to get excited about replenishment... unless you are willing to do comprehensive testing of your film on a _regular basis_ you risk screwing up your precious film. It happened to me after I was replenishing for some time. I got progressively thinner and thinner films, in the end costing me about 1 stop of speed (from memory). Compared with developing 1+2 with XTOL replenishment saves nothing and furthermore you risk ruining your film. In my opinion, its is simply not worth it.

I still wonder if your storage containers are contributing to the problem. You say you were using a 5 liter plastic container. What kind of a 5 liter plastic container were you using for the working solution? What were you storing the replenisher in? I think your solutions were exposed to too much oxygen somehow. You also mentioned that you were using a rotary processor to develop your film. As Ian Grant has stated in this thread, replenished developers are NOT well suited for rotary processing due to increased levels of aerial oxidation.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Zathras,
storage is definitely a valid concern. Using single shot developer means you use it all up, and when you're done, you mix new developer. It probably doesn't have enough time to get oxidized to the point it's useless, depending on how much time the developer spends in storage, of course.
When replenishing, storage becomes a much more critical venture.

dfoo,
I'm glad you have found a way to develop your film that works for you. It is good of you to report your findings here so the rest of us may learn from it. Thank you for doing so!
But I think that your case is the odd one, quite frankly, and that something is going on in your process that depletes the developer activity, and that is abnormal. What went wrong is a guess at best, looking from here. I'm pretty sure there's a scientific reason for it somewhere in all of this.
I hope you have better luck with Xtol 1:1, which seems to sit better with you anyway since you like the results.

- Thomas

I still wonder if your storage containers are contributing to the problem. You say you were using a 5 liter plastic container. What kind of a 5 liter plastic container were you using for the working solution? What were you storing the replenisher in? I think your solutions were exposed to too much oxygen somehow. You also mentioned that you were using a rotary processor to develop your film. As Ian Grant has stated in this thread, replenished developers are NOT well suited for rotary processing due to increased levels of aerial oxidation.

 

[markbarendt]

Zathras,
storage is definitely a valid concern. Using single shot developer means you use it all up, and when you're done, you mix new developer. It probably doesn't have enough time to get oxidized to the point it's useless, depending on how much time the developer spends in storage, of course.
When replenishing, storage becomes a much more critical venture.

I can see where with say Rodinol or Pyro where one shotting makes perfect sense.

I don't see how in Xtol's case, where a "batch" is 5 liters or nothing, how the keeping qualities might change for the stock solution.

With regard to the working solution, the norm is keeping a constant volume (a completely full bottle), so the only real wild card is in how much air the agitation introduces.

I don't use rotation so I can't answer for that but with normal hand tank agitation I find almost no bubbles develop in my working solution bottle.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

With regard to the working solution, the norm is keeping a constant volume (a completely full bottle), so the only real wild card is in how much air the agitation introduces.

A poor quality storage container can 'breathe' air, which in turn will oxidize the developer over time. In my mind, it would be important to insure that one uses a proper storage container, and that there could be a reason for concern, even though I've never had it proven to me.
Some plastics will even leak water. Like how some plastics you store meat in will leak liquid right through the plastic when you defrost the meat and create a puddle on the plate, while other plastics do not.
If you use you chemistry quickly, I don't think this is a problem. But when using replenished chemistry where it is sometimes stored for a long time between uses, it might be a concern. It's a possibility, I guess, although not a certain reason. Just trying to look at it from different angles.
But I digress. I mainly got back on the forum after quitting it, just to try to help with the Xtol issue, because it's something I have used extensively myself and actually have a clue about. I'll retire to 'underneath the rock' again...

 

[Hal Reiser]

I have to say that I have had the same experience with Xtol replenished that dfoo had. After seasoning my working solution the negatives I was getting were superb. I really liked the tonality and lack of grain.

Unfortunately my volume is small and there are long periods where the working solution remains idle. Also I have not been consistant in replenishing the working solution during the the idle periods.

With a working solution that was 9 months old I began to experience consistently thinner negatives despite replenishing at a rate of 100ml per roll.

My storage system is a follows;
1 1/2 gal glass bottle for the working solution.
3 1/4 qt glass bottles to store the stock solution.
As the stock solution bottles are emptied they are stoppered with vac u vin stoppers and the air pumped out.

I would really like to keep working with this system so I am contemplating mixing a fresh batch of Xtol and starting over again and have a couple of questions.

1. Given the long periods of inactivity and replenishing the working solution every two weeks or so would that lower the bromide levels in the working solution and thus change development times when the working solution is used the next time?

2. Can I use the old deteriorated working solution to season the new batch and if so approximately how much of the old working solution should I add to the new working solution ?

 

[dfoo]

I used two plastic 4L water bottles used for spring water at the local food store. I've used them for storing lots of other chemicals such as fixer, dektol and so on. I also did NOT develop with rotary processing at the time.

I'm not also that convinced that my experience is that rare. Perhaps the difference is the film being run through? I was using at the time Tri-X and Eastman XX. Referring back to the earlier quoted RFF thread a poster Marty also confirmed what I had experienced, except it sounds like he has a much more professional setup:

Absolutely. From my experience of running a 15L deep-tank replenished Xtol system, a minimum 1 stop loss occurred - this was mainly due to a lowering of alkalinity - but the speed loss varied depending on the films. Many films also looked really mushy with all the bromide in the developer. Agfa APX films, for some reason, looked much better in really seasoned Xtol than most other films.

At home I develop one-shot with Xtol 1+3. It was 37.3C here today and the tap water is at 28C.

Marty

 

[markbarendt]

A poor quality storage container can 'breathe' air, which in turn will oxidize the developer over time.

My point is that storage quality is common to either replenished or one shot.

 

[markbarendt]

With a working solution that was 9 months old I began to experience consistently thinner negatives despite replenishing at a rate of 100ml per roll.

At 9 months of sitting you are actually well past where Kodak says even well kept Xtol stock should last.

The stock may actually be reaching it's shelf life limits rather than the working solution, in fact I'd bet on that.

A fresh 5 liter batch of Xtol stock every 6-8 months may be the answer. Given that Xtol is pretty cheap that's not much of a cost issue.

If that's not workable a developer that can truly be batched in small quantities, like HC-110, may be a better choice.

 

[Sirius Glass]

You shouldn't use rotary processing with any replenished developer because there far more aerial oxidation taking place due to low volumes and high surface areas.

Ian

That has never been a problem for me.

I use 500mls for my processing 35mm, 120 and 4x5.

Steve

 

[Ian Grant]

That has never been a problem for me.

I use 500mls for my processing 35mm, 120 and 4x5.

Steve

Most people using rotary processing use much smaller volumes which is where oxidation would be a bigger issue.

Ian

 

[Sirius Glass]

500ml is what is needed for the 4x5s, since a liter would be too much I just use 500ml. After the development, I pour the replenish developer in the bottle and top it off with the 500ml. Using a larger volume helps average out the chemistry used, thus covering any sins.

 

[remjet5219]

DOes you development time change when doing the replenish method?

 

[MattKing]

DOes you development time change when doing the replenish method?

A replenishment workflow will lead to a different set of standard development times.
A good starting point for seasoned developer is the 1 + 1 one shot times.

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

....and season to taste...

 

[remjet5219]

What about while it's being seasoned? As in the first 6 rolls?

 

[MattKing]

What about while it's being seasoned? As in the first 6 rolls?

I just used a straight line approximation of the steps required to go from the times for stock and the times for 1 + 1.

 

[Sirius Glass]

What about while it's being seasoned? As in the first 6 rolls?

I will either wait until I have developed six rolls or just start replenishing from the start. I prefer the former, but I have had no noticeable problems with the latter. Replenished XTOL is very forgiving.

 

[remjet5219]

I will either wait until I have developed six rolls or just start replenishing from the start. I prefer the former, but I have had no noticeable problems with the latter. Replenished XTOL is very forgiving.

Thanks!!