Replenishing HC-110

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I didn't know there were so many HC-110 users out there. Again, thanks for all the tips. I guess self-replenishing is possible. I use my developer at dilution B. I find when I soup FP4 or Arista edu Ultra, the shadows are lacking at box speeds. When I was shooting 20 rolls per month, I replenished and the look of the negs were great.

 

[MattKing]

Thomas, my tank is 3.5 gallons. It sees anywhere from about 25 to 200 rolls a month. But usually around 30 or 40. The tank has sit for 2 weeks w/o use and I've not noticed any ill effects. W/ a floating saran wrap lid on the liquid.

But mostly, I'm using the normal concentrate as the replenisher just like the tech pub says for dilution E. The replenisher dilution is stronger than the normal. 22ml per roll. DUmp half the tank every few weeks.

The effects it has on film will depend on the fllm I'd guess...w/ TX400 I think it's really nice. Sharper grain, softer contrast, better highlight separation, 1 stop shadow speed loss. But these are very unscientific observations. My tank began to season quickly. It's easy to run a test w/ a small batch.

Graeme:

If I understand correctly, you are using the normal concentrate in place of the replenisher, diluting it according to the instructions in j24 to prepare the replenisher solution, and then using 22ml of the replenisher solution for each roll.

If my reading of the instructions and arithmetic are correct (concentrate - stock - replenisher), 22ml of replenisher solution consists of 1.16 ml of concentrate and 20.84 ml of water (caution - unreliable round-off here).

I'm surprised that just over 1 ml of concentrate would be enough to keep the replenished developer stable. I understand from your posts that you aren't seeing any drift, but do you think if you used more concentrate per roll that you wouldn't have to discard as much of the tank every few weeks?

I'm tempted to try something like using 3ml of concentrate diluted 1+47 per roll. Any thoughts?

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Matt, okay, I'll throw my numbers out there, but keep in mind what works in my tank may not in yours. I do all of my stuff by eye, and, well, gut.

I replenish 22ml per roll at 1+17 (18 parts total) from syrup for each roll. That I believe is pretty close to what the replenishment suggestion is for dilution E (1+3 then 8+11 right...comes out to maybe more like 1+18 in one step...anyway) when I did my math.

But yes, it's approx. 1.2ml of concentrate per roll.

My initial batch is 1+49. I dump half the tank off each few weeks and replace it w/ fresh 1+49.

That's been working perfectly fine for me, for, 4 months. But I ALWAYS run a test roll, and just base my times off of that. But seems stable to me.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Graeme.

I think the difference in our math comes from the following:

You refer to 1 + 3 for the "stock", which I read as Kodak's suggestion for stock developer;

I used 1 + 7 (16 oz concentrate diluted to make 128 oz US gallon) for the "stock", which I read as Kodak's suggestion for stock replenisher.

Using your 1 +3 for stock, I think the final result comes out to 2 ml concentrate in the 22 ml of replenisher solution.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Matt, those numbers were just off the top of my head...I'd a mess of numbers on a piece of paper 5 months ago when I started to try to figure it out. And maybe I just got really lucky w/ whatever I figured out, as it seems to work.

Either 1+17 at 22ml is still only 1.2ml of syrup per roll.

Anyway...it seems to be working. Maybe it'll all stop working next week or once the weather gets hot. Who knows. Either way, it's good while it lasts.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Is there a difference in the amount of HC-110 concentrate between the different dilutions of working developers. So is HC-110 B has the same replenishment rate as HC-110 E?

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Is there a difference in the amount of HC-110 concentrate between the different dilutions of working developers. So is HC-110 B has the same replenishment rate as HC-110 E?

Yes there is a difference. If you look on the tech sheet (j-24 I think), it'll give you the replenishment dilution that corresponds to the working solution you're using.

Really it's pretty simple stuff. Just start getting your hands dirty w/ it. Be prepared to run a test roll to keep an eye on it. Worse case scenario is you wank one of them up and have to re-figure your numbers.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Graeme:

I'm tempted to try something like using 3ml of concentrate diluted 1+47 per roll. Any thoughts?

You could try 3ml, but I think you're going to see a sharp increase in contrast after a few rounds. I'd personally love to use a buffer dilution like B, but w/ big tanks I must have more than 6 min, pref more than 7 min, for even development.

I think no matter what dilution used, Kodak suggests to spill off a bunch of the tank or restart after a few weeks. Maybe b/c of restrainer build up? Other people will be more educated in answering that. But when I dump it it is less time based than it is film based (I keep a tank log). I was really busy for awhile and it was seeing a few hundred rolls a month, so I dumped half of it twice that month (plus I'd just started the tank so I was extra nervous about it's stability), but I've been running less film recently and I've gained confidence in it's stability so I don't think I've dumped any for over a month now. Maybe there's a bit less shadow density than before...as would be expected...so it may be drifting a bit...I'm not doing control strips here. But the film looks fine to me, and I like to think I've a relatively high standard in consistency.

I may run more film than the average user though. I've NO idea how it'd work out in a smaller tank or if it saw less film.

Get a batch going. Shoot me an email to compare notes. You may find something better than I have. I like the process a lot personally, little chemical recklessness makes the usual mundane running of film more interesting.

Again I was apprehensive to share my data on this b/c I'm probably much less experienced than a lot of people at this stuff. I've just figured out what's worked on my end by asking questions and lots of testing. So I'm equally as interested to hear what others come up w/.

 

[2F/2F]

To replenish, you add 22 mL of replenisher working solution per roll processed. With different working solutions of HC-110, you need to make different working solutions of replenisher.

For dilutions A and C, you add 22 mL of replenisher stock per roll, undiluted. The other dilutions of HC-110 require diluting the replenisher stock to make a working replenisher solution. Dilution B requires diluting the replenisher stock 2:1 stock to water. Dilution D is 1:1. Dilution F is not recommended for replenishing. Dilution E is an awkward 8:11 ratio.

But unless you have stockpiled HC-110 Replenisher, I am not sure how useful this information is.

I forget exactly where I read it, but I could swear that in something I read, someone recommended adding 4 mL of HC-110 Developer (not Replenisher) syrup per roll processed.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

While workable, self replenishment is not as satisfactory as using a specific replenisher. There are certain dirrerences between a developer and a replenisher. Replenishers usually contain no bromide so self replenishment with HC-110 will not be as satisfactory as when the HC-110 replenisher was used. True replenishers also correct the pH of a developer and for the loss of developing agents caused by aerial oxidation. The alkalinity of a true replenisher and the amounts of the developing agents will therefore be different than for the developer. The replenished HC-110 should be checked more closely. The amount of old developer discarded for each replenishment cycle has to be greater than if a true replenisher were used. This is to partially correct for some of these problems. In addition, the replenished developer should be discarded sooner than if a specific replenisher were used. I don't know if the Kodak instructions completely discuss this or not.

The dilution of the HC-110 used for replenishment must be the same as for the developer. If you are using dilution B then the replenisher dilution must also be dilution B. You cannot just add HC-110 concentrate. Typically in self replenished systems the "replenisher" is identical to fresh developer. It is important that a certain amount of old developer is dumped in each replenishment. This helps to minimize bromide buildup. If you notice the activity to be less or there is an increase in contrast then dump more developer in each cycle and then top off with fresh developer. Conversely if the developer is "hotter" than it should be then dump less and top off with less.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Jerry brings up a very important issue.

I remember working in a professional lab, and the black and white machine was always checked for activity before each run with a test strip and densitometer readings, even though we knew by experience how much to replenish.

Personally, I only have experience replenishing Xtol and Edwal 12. Both of these actually use the developer as replenisher and work quite well as such. But in the case of D76 and HC-110 (more widely used) specific replenishing solutions were made, and I trust Jerry's advice without a doubt.
It does seem as though Graeme has a good process that is stable, and as long as it works to satisfaction, then all is well.

I'm not really interested in using HC-110 as a replenished solution, but it's been interesting to follow this thread. Personally I just use it at 1+50, just like Rodinal, to avoid making it complicated. It's a wonderful developer for rotary processing of sheet film, I have found out.

Don't forget about the L110 and L110-R. It might be better to just purchase and use those instead, as they are told to work exactly like HC-110 and HC-110R, or at least have been formulated as such.

- Thomas

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Here's an example of some film I just ran through it. The black and white stuff in this post. All 35mm Tri-x and a nikon.

http://graememitchell.com/blog/elyse-taylor-w-ford

Those aren't intended to prove anything at all. I just thought maybe for some they're an interesting balance to the tech talk of ph shifting and bromide build up.

It's neither a look, nor a process for everyone. For sure. But for those that are interested, I wouldn't be shy.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I'm not really interested in using HC-110 as a replenished solution, but it's been interesting to follow this thread. Personally I just use it at 1+50, just like Rodinal, to avoid making it complicated. It's a wonderful developer for rotary processing of sheet film, I have found out.
- Thomas

I'm with you. I too love it at 1:50. Since I often switch between HC-110 and Rodinal, by using the same dilution I avoid mixing mistakes. By using a one shot method I insure that my negatives are consistant from roll to roll. I don't like darkroom work, it's hard on the feet and the back. I'd much prefer taking photographs. By making sure my negatives are consistant I spend less time in the darkroom.

Replenishment works best in situations where a large amount of film is processed at regular intervals. An example would be a commercial lab. If your situation is different then a one shot method is better. Replenishment is always a tradeoff between negative quality and economy.

Developers like D-76 and Xtol are better suited for self replenishment since they contain no bromide and it is easier to control bromide buildup. The developer example in us Patent 3,552,969 is probably very similar to HC-110. It contains an adduct between an amine such as DEA and hydrogen bromide. This must be done because KBr or NaBr are not soluble in organic solvents.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Replenishment works best in situations where a large amount of film is processed at regular intervals. An example would be a commercial lab. If your situation is different then a one shot method is better. Replenishment is always a tradeoff between negative quality and economy.

I agree with your notions above, but actually find that my negatives processed in replenished Xtol to be better than those made in diluted or stock Xtol. Sharper, finer grain, and a tonality (toe and shoulder) that suits my printing and work better.

Perhaps this isn't true with other replenished systems, I don't know. As I said above I have only used Edwal 12 and Xtol as replenished developers, but both those gave, to me, vastly superior negatives compared to stock solution.

Your mileage and observations may vary.

- Thomas

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I'm learning a lot on this thread. Thanks! I still have some HC-110 concentrate and once I use it up, I'll follow Thomas' advice and start using the L-110 and the replenisher. I only process about a dozen rolls a month. Does it make sense to replenish though I like look? I currently also use XTOL replenished and it works well. The look is slightly soft for some of my applications.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

I'd just start to try it. Even w/ the HC-110 you already have. Mix a batch up of your B working dilution, say a gallon, and keep it in a really good jug. Then try to put 3 or 4 rolls through it every week or so, more if you can. Add 22ml of new solution at whatever dilution you figure out per roll (I'd personally prob start at somewhere around 1+10 from syrup, but I have NO real idea).

Always run a test roll before anything important.

See where it takes you. If it falls off and get's flat, make your replenishment dilution stronger, if starts to get hot, back it off. If you can never seem to find a balance w/ it, you're probably just not running enough film to keep it stable. Either way, you'll be able to see really quickly what it's doing w/ a small batch like that. It's not as hard as it seems once you start to do it.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Thanks for the tip. So do I shoot a contrasty scene as a test? I can learn something from this test.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Kodak publication J-24 is of no value in this discussion since it deals only with replenishment using HC-110 replenisher. Anyone interested in using HC-110 in a self replenished system needs to contact Kodak to get detailed information as to how this is done.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

If it falls off and get's flat, make your replenishment dilution stronger

No, in a self replenishing system you would just add more fresh working strength developer. If you are replenishing dilution B you would just add a little more fresh dilution B than usual. When you replenish Xtol you don't add stronger Xtol you just add fresh Xtol solution. The concentrations have to be the same. This is to insure that enough used developer is dumped each replenishment cycle to control bromide build up. With Xtol this is 70 ml per roll. For HC-110 dilution B it is probably a similar amount.

I would not attempt to replenish any dilution other than dilution B with this method.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

Hey, Jerry, I did contact kodak, and they suggested to: use HC-110 in place of HC-110R and test, as they hadn't figured the exact replenishment dilutions.

I apologize, b/c there is some confusion in regards to my saying "self replenishment." Those were my words, not kodaks. I just meant replenish w/ the use of HC-110, but at a different dilution. My mistake. I wasn't aware of the strict meaning of self replenishment.

I don't pour any of my tank off when I run film, but add 22ml for each roll, which roughly corresponds to carry off. BUT, I do spill about half the tank off every few weeks, as suggested in J-24.

Despite all the great info here, I've had a tank going for 4 months and approx 400 rolls through it (given a quick glance at my tank log) - I ran film this morning which looked good by my eye - and that's evidence enough for me.

That's really all I can add. I was apprehensive from the get go offering information and numbers on a process that is, in this case, really all about testing for yourself.

 

[trexx]

The purpose of the replenisher is to keep the developer (activator/restrainer)
at a given concentration. We don't know what this is in the case of HC-110 but we
can estimate the values, based on capacity. Looking at the non-replenished
rate for dilution B we get 5 rolls of 8x10 equiv. per liter dilution B.
There are 31ml syrup per liter, or 6.2ml syrup and 193.8ml water consumed
per roll. ( this rated holds for dilutions A and E ). So it would be
feasible to replenish at the rate of 200ml of B for each roll. Which
means the you would also toss maybe 175ml of the seasoned developer.

We can get back that 6.2ml of syrup also by putting in 25ml of the mixed
stock solution. Which is about the loss on a roll of film. If I was
replenishing HC-110 this would be my starting point. Id do replenish XTOL. The 70ml per roll is just above the 66.6ml per roll indicated by capacity

TR

 

[John Shriver]

Or, stock up on HC-110 replenisher on eBay. There's a seller with over 10 containers of it. Price is only $5 a bottle, plus a lot for UPS shipping, plus a $25 UPS "HazMat" fee per shipment. But, buy enough bottles, it should be possible to get a reasonable price.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Haz mat fee?

Price is only $5 a bottle, plus a lot for UPS shipping, plus a $25 UPS "HazMat" fee per shipment. But, buy enough bottles, it should be possible to get a reasonable price.

It's funny because when ordered HC-110 from Freestyle, there was no such fee. I'll try the Thomas' suggestion of trying L-110 and the replenisher after I run out of my current stock of HC-110.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Hey, Jerry, I did contact kodak, and they suggested to: use HC-110 in place of HC-110R and test, as they hadn't figured the exact replenishment dilutions.

Hey what works works. Sounds like you should be telling the folks at Kodak what you are doing.

 

[GraemeMitchell]

I wanted to update this b/c I've discovered a few other things as I've continued to work w/ my tank of this developer. Again, just my experiences, so take w/ a bunch of salt.

First, I'm still fiddling, but I think the replenishment rate from syrup may be more like 1+14. I think I began at something like 1+17, but I've been leaning towards rounding it up. Say I run 18 rolls, I'll just replenish for 20. With a 3.5 gallon tank the size makes drifts slow - which is great b/c it makes any small errors less dramatic, but it also makes nailing the exact numbers down hard to do, since the difference btwn something like 1+17 and 1+14 is scant. I think working w/ a small batch would be easier to pin down a number on.

Also, b/c I when I dump half the tank off every few hundred rolls or every few weeks, it heats back up, by say a half or 3/4 of a stop. Makes sense since it's sort of like un-seasoning half the tank. So it further makes it hard there to nail a number down, since working w/ the tank takes on a sort of rhythm of it's own. Again, a small tank of developer would be much easier to get a read on I think.

Has anyone else given it a go? Numbers?

Finally, this was a big one that just reared it's head, I think it came w/ the hot weather. Streaking, or drag. I let the tank sit for just over two weeks (w/ a saran wrap floating lid), and I noticed streaking popping up on the first few batches of film I ran when I came back. Big old drag line that will pop up in areas of, say, zone iii densities on 120 or bigger (no prob w/ 35mm). But after I run maybe 20 or so rolls, it doesn't show up on anything after that, at all. I didn't see this at all in the winter or spring, and I'd let it sit for 2 or 3 weeks a few times, but it got hot here so the temp in my room is about 85 degrees now. My guess is that it's the developer is oxidizing much faster in the heat and it's causing this.

My solution for now, since I can't get rid of the heat, is to pick up a few hundred sheets of 8x10 xray film (like a quarter a sheet), and if I have to let the developer sit, then I'll just run 25 or so of them through it before I start at it. At least while summer is here. It's an added expense, but I still think it's worth it. If it works...

So it's become very much a feel thing for me now...but I LIKE working that way. The replenishment part is really very easy I think, if you can stand the occasional 1/2 stop drift up or down and are willing to learn your tank. But stuff like the streaking/drag is a different story: a problem that has to be solved. But other than that, it continues to be a lot of fun to work w/. And the film looks really really tight.