Replenished D76 foaming excessively

[mshchem]

 

[mshchem]

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[MattKing]

Are you suggesting a switch from distilled to filtered water?

Perhaps. Or two pre-rinses.
The surfactant is probably incorporated, along with other components, in order to permit use with most tap water.
And of course any problems that might arise from a tendency to foam may be related to your particular choice of reels, tanks and solution volumes, and not be of concern with respect to different reels, tanks and solution volumes or commercial roller transport, dip and dunk or deep tank lines.

 

[pbromaghin]

Perhaps. Or two pre-rinses.
The surfactant is probably incorporated, along with other components, in order to permit use with most tap water.
And of course any problems that might arise from a tendency to foam may be related to your particular choice of reels, tanks and solution volumes, and not be of concern with respect to different reels, tanks and solution volumes or commercial roller transport, dip and dunk or deep tank lines.

Two pre-rinses? Do you recommend any minimum time for each?

The equipment in question are Kinderman reels and tanks, but for the last 5 HP5+ rolls I used an old Jobo 2336 tank that strongly resembles a Patterson system. I have been using all of these for 10-15 years with no problem

 

[pbromaghin]

Why wouldn't all film and paper manufacturers require these agents? I'm not buying the Ilford films froth. They don't (or Kodak, Foma, Fuji) in my processing.

It's the water, or contaminated chemicals, or reused containers....the list goes on and on before I would suspect it's Ilford film.

I used distilled water for developer, stop, fix, and HCA. Tap water rinse was the Ilford Method on steroids - a fill and 20 inversions, followed by HCA for 7 minutes and 5 refills with up to 40 inversions, and Photoflo AFTER removing the film from the reels. None of the equipment has been touched by Photoflo for at least 4 years. Prior to this, the quart-sized coffee creamer bottles ("Half and Half" in the US) used for the D-76R have been used only for splitting D-76 gallons into 4 quarts for 2 home-brew batches and 1 D-23 batch. The 2-liter bottle of working solution contained cheap soda-pop before this and was thoroughly washed and rinsed. Any contamination the equopment might have introduced was there at the beginning, but the foaming was only noticeable after about 20 rolls and damaged the top reel of 24-25.

The only element, not present at the beginning, that may have contained a surfactant, is the film. See post #9.

 

[MattKing]

Two pre-rinses? Do you recommend any minimum time for each?

The equipment in question are Kinderman reels and tanks, but for the last 5 HP5+ rolls I used an old Jobo 2336 tank that strongly resembles a Patterson system. I have been using all of these for 10-15 years with no problem

Understood.
I'm not saying that anything is necessary faulty, or wrong.
In most cases, foam doesn't really matter anyways. It is only an issue if the result of the foaming is that parts of the film spend too much time in foam, and not enough time immersed in liquid. That relates not so much to the developer as it does to the geometry of the tank and reel combination and the volumes used.
The two rinses would just be more likely to remove any excess surfactant - excess to what is suitable, given the particular nature of the water used to make up the developer plus the constituent other chemicals in the developer. As for the time, I can't really suggest anything particular. FWIW, I always use a single 3 minute pre-rinse, but there is no science behind that other than dependable results, and all the rest of my variables differ from yours.
Commercially prepared developers often have extra components included that deal with water variations, and differences between films. If you are mixing up your own, those components won't be present.
It may just be that through coincidence you have hit on a combination that is both particular to your usage and problematic. So if you change any of the variables - water used, volume used, number and duration of pre-rinses, perhaps even agitation, the change may disrupt everything sufficiently.

 

[koraks]

Why wouldn't all film and paper manufacturers require these agents?

They likely do, but the choice of agents, any mitigating factors and their concentration may differ from one manufacturer to another.
I've never found the foaming to be a problem, but it does occur from time to time.

Btw, RA4 developer foams like crazy - which is also due to the surfactants added to it to promote even wetting. What gives; just spritz it with some ethanol if it's a problem, e.g. when pouring it back into the bottle.

I'd just ignore it frankly; the foam isn't really a problem. It'll die down between sessions and as long as the fill volume of the tank is sufficient, it won't affect development.

Commercially prepared developers often have extra components included that deal with water variations, and differences between films. If you are mixing up your own, those components won't be present.

These are generally sequestering agents. Interestingly, in terms of foaming, they would make your developer foam up more instead of less, since the calcium carbonate 'hardness' in the water tends to suppress foaming. Btw, it's not the water.

 

[Don_ih]

maybe I should just start with a new working solution now

I make only 1/2 a litre of replenisher for a litre of stock. Last time that came to an end, I poured off 1/2 the stock and replaced it with freshly made D76 and also made another 1/2 litre of replenisher. Seems like a good way to go.

Deal with the frothiness by making sure you have enough developer in your tank to completely cover the reel plus a bit more - and rap the tank down on the counter after each agitation.

Also, I use tap water and don't get foam. Maybe the foam is held back by the hardness of my water.

 

[pbromaghin]

I make only 1/2 a litre of replenisher for a litre of stock. Last time that came to an end, I poured off 1/2 the stock and replaced it with freshly made D76 and also made another 1/2 litre of replenisher. Seems like a good way to go.

Deal with the frothiness by making sure you have enough developer in your tank to completely cover the reel plus a bit more - and rap the tank down on the counter after each agitation.

Also, I use tap water and don't get foam. Maybe the foam is held back by the hardness of my water.

I tried replacing half the stock with new stock (distilled water) and doing a 2-bath tap-water presoak. Developing 3 rolls of HP5+ today yielded no foam.

 

[tezzasmall]

I tried replacing half the stock with new stock (distilled water) and doing a 2-bath tap-water presoak. Developing 3 rolls of HP5+ today yielded no foam.

Sounds like you may have it sorted. Me, I've never had the problem of foaming with any film I've processed, using both straight tap water and filtered water for the final rinse.

I'm in SE England in the UK and the water is relatively soft, with no limescale in the kettle.

Terry S

 

[pentaxuser]

It could also be the particular combination of the film and the water you used.

Just noticed this thread and the comment by you Matt. I have noticed that the wrong combo of whisky and water can make me foam excessively but seems to do no harm

On a more serious note it seems as if it didn't do any harm to Peter's film either. I get regular foaming at the top of my Jobo tanks on inversion agitation but am pleased to say it has never harmed the films

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

the wrong combo of whisky and water can make me foam excessively but seems to do no harm

Some would say that combining whisky with any water will always do harm - to the whisky!

 

[snusmumriken]

On a more serious note it seems as if it didn't do any harm to Peter's film either. I get regular foaming at the top of my Jobo tanks on inversion agitation but am pleased to say it has never harmed the films

+1. I was going to ask what the perceived problem was with the foam?

I live in a (very) hard water area, I use the tap water for everything except the final rinse, I use mostly Ilford films, I don't pre-wash, I use a Paterson tank, and I do get foaming ... but I've not noticed that it creates any problem. Actually I do continuous inversion agitation for 4 minutes in Bath A of a 2-bath developer, and minimal agitation in Bath B. The foam is clearly washed around in Bath A; but in Bath B it presumably sits on top, away from the film, given that I use enough chemical in the tank to cover the film(s).

 

[cliveh]

I would bet that somewhere in your processing cycle, you are using photoflo or wetting agent, that is contaminating your developer for reuse. Cut those out and problem solved.

 

[pentaxuser]

I would bet that somewhere in your processing cycle, you are using photoflo or wetting agent, that is contaminating your developer for reuse. Cut those out and problem solved.

So presumably using a separate vessel for the photo-flo or wetting agent solves the problem? My problem or non problem as it happens is that wetting agent never gets anywhere near my tanks or reels and yet I get foaming but it does no harm


pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

Maybe the alkalinity of the developer is mixing with the oil from too-oily fingers and making a wee bit of soap

 

[snusmumriken]

I would bet that somewhere in your processing cycle, you are using photoflo or wetting agent, that is contaminating your developer for reuse. Cut those out and problem solved.

Not sure whether you are responding to @pentaxuser and myself, or to the OP? In my case, I do indeed use a wetting agent, but the point in my post was not 'What is the cause?', but 'What is the problem?'