Replacing Ni-Cad batteries in an electronic flash
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Wonder if he ever got this repaired. Lost in the thread is a link I posted above to what looks like a drop in replacement. This was a surprise to me because last time I searched for those Varta button cells for my Rollei E36RE, I thought they were out of production. Looks like this place can make a stack of them any size.
This is a battery made of NiMH cells in series.
The OP though is looking for something like this, but from NiCd cells. Or loose NiCd cells of apt dimension, wtih tabs, to solder them in series. (Alternatively he could re-use the original mounting caps, or otherwise fix the stack. Just fixing and contacting a stack by means of shrink-hose seems daring to me.)
The OP though is looking for something like this, but from NiCd cells. Or loose NiCd cells of apt dimension, wtih tabs, to solder them in series. (Alternatively he could re-use the original mounting caps, or otherwise fix the stack. Just fixing and contacting a stack by means of shrink-hose seems daring to me.)
OP
OP
I have been busy with work, but have tried researching what I would need to charge the NiMh cells, like the ones shown above. The Bauer charger has three small female connectors to the three pins on the flash but doesn't have any listing of charging voltage or wattage. If the flash isn't usable as it is, I suppose the worst I could do is blow it up!
Andy
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Ok, I don't want to contradict you guys if you have told him not to charge those NiHM cells with his charger, but I have done it for years. Ever since NiHM were available.
Rollei e36re flash: Converted to NiHM and used its own charger
Rollei SL3003: Converted to NiHm and used its own charger
Rollei 6008i: Converted to NiHM and used its own charger
Many many RC model controllers and receiver packs: Converted to NiHM and used the supplied wall-wart chargers
1980s Braun Travel Electric Razor: Soldered in a NiHM in place of the old Nicad and continued to use its supplied charger cord
Maybe more examples I can't recall off hand.
Rollei e36re flash: Converted to NiHM and used its own charger
Rollei SL3003: Converted to NiHm and used its own charger
Rollei 6008i: Converted to NiHM and used its own charger
Many many RC model controllers and receiver packs: Converted to NiHM and used the supplied wall-wart chargers
1980s Braun Travel Electric Razor: Soldered in a NiHM in place of the old Nicad and continued to use its supplied charger cord
Maybe more examples I can't recall off hand.
OP
OP
Well, I'm going to order the batteries and give it a shot. I've got two of them, so if I blow one up, it won't be the end of the world. Cheap enough experiment...
Andy
PS: I ordered it from eBay. There were a few suppliers but the cheapest was $25.95. It's worth a try. Thanks to all for their advice!
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In my post above, all the cases use the Slow, or Trickle or Overnight Nicad charger, which is not any different than a NiMH slow charger. I believe your flash has that style of overnight charger.
Here is an example of a current production charger of that style. As shown, it works with both battery types:
https://www.powerstream.com/Ni-6-200.htm
Here is an example of a current production charger of that style. As shown, it works with both battery types:
https://www.powerstream.com/Ni-6-200.htm
The "charger" not only is a charger but also a mains supply. Typically such devices supply 2 voltages, thus is 3-pole.
Agree with AgX on that. The Rollei charger is similar. Its three-prong plug provides the slow trickle charge for the battery and allows "Duplex" operation for charging of the flash capacitor (from mains current) while the battery is charging.
How could I forget 20 year ago. I had my Rollei SLX setup at my wedding for some B&W pictures with my e36re flash. Too bad the original Varta battery in that flash was dead and I could not find a new one in time for the wedding. So I had an extension cord running to the Rollei charger which I kept plugged into the flash. That allowed the flash to function to get the pictures.
How could I forget 20 year ago. I had my Rollei SLX setup at my wedding for some B&W pictures with my e36re flash. Too bad the original Varta battery in that flash was dead and I could not find a new one in time for the wedding. So I had an extension cord running to the Rollei charger which I kept plugged into the flash. That allowed the flash to function to get the pictures.
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OP
OP
Yes, the flash has a separate position for direct mains operation, and is working fine that way. I'm thinking that this is a good thing, right? The cells should arrive midweek, so I'll probably attempt the installation next weekend. Thanks to you and AgX for your advice. I'm far from an electronics whiz.
Andy
Of course one may ask "Why all that hassle?"
At least I myself can get locally decent autoexposure flashes for 5Euro or less, that take loose AA cells. By this and respective stand-alone chargers one could take any route concerning battery technology.
For me, and likely the OP, the issue is to get some of these early electronic flashes with built-in rechargable cells going again, for historic reason. "Just" substituting the old stack of NiCd cells with new NiCd cells seems to me the most easy way to go.
Yes, I know of the memory-effect and that such approach will not yield endless pleasure, but these cells worked in the past...
At least I myself can get locally decent autoexposure flashes for 5Euro or less, that take loose AA cells. By this and respective stand-alone chargers one could take any route concerning battery technology.
For me, and likely the OP, the issue is to get some of these early electronic flashes with built-in rechargable cells going again, for historic reason. "Just" substituting the old stack of NiCd cells with new NiCd cells seems to me the most easy way to go.
Yes, I know of the memory-effect and that such approach will not yield endless pleasure, but these cells worked in the past...
You can use NiCd charger and get the NiMH batteries charged, but you do so at the risk of damaging the NiMH cells over time. A compilation of multiple articles on the topic, by industry experts...
1. "In general, NiMH batteries cannot handle the high rate of charges or discharges (typically over 1.5-2 amps) that NiCad batteries can. Many modelers use high rate, peak detection or time-based chargers to charge NiCad batteries. Such chargers are NOT recommended for NiMH batteries (unless otherwise specified in the charger or battery literature) as they can cause permanent damage to the NiMH cells. Also, NiMH batteries will not perform well in high rate discharge applications, typically providing only a small fraction of the rated capacity in these instances.
"NiMH batteries also have approximately twice the self-discharge rate of NiCad batteries when in an used state. For example, when your radio is off, a 1650mah NiMH battery can discharge itself nearly twice as quickly as a NiCad battery, typically within one week. Therefore, you must charge your NiMH batteries the night before each use.
"If the charger uses a higher rate, it would have to detect when the batteries are fully charged and shut off, or risk damaging them. This would make the charger more complex, and hence more expensive. Lower charge rates than C/10 unnecessarily extend the charging time, and in fact at very low rates (below C/50) the batteries never fully charge no matter how long you wait."
2. "All NiCd cells can be trickle charged continuously, but some NiMH cells cannot, and may be damaged if the trickle charge is continued after reaching full charge. Also, the battery voltage profile during a fast charge cycle differs between the two battery types."
3. "For NiMH cells, the decrease in battery voltage (–ΔV) after reaching a peak is approximately one half that of NiCd cells, thus making charge termination based on –ΔV slightly more difficult. In addition, the NiMH battery temperature rise during the charge cycle is higher than NiCd, and the higher temperature further reduces the amount of –ΔV that occurs when full charge is reached. For NiMH cells, –ΔV is almost non-existent at high temperatures for charge rates less than C/2. "
4. "Nickel- and lithium-based batteries require different charge algorithms. A NiMH charger can also charge NiCd; a NiCd charger would overcharge NiMH. Do not leave a nickel-based battery in the charger for more than a few days. "
1. "In general, NiMH batteries cannot handle the high rate of charges or discharges (typically over 1.5-2 amps) that NiCad batteries can. Many modelers use high rate, peak detection or time-based chargers to charge NiCad batteries. Such chargers are NOT recommended for NiMH batteries (unless otherwise specified in the charger or battery literature) as they can cause permanent damage to the NiMH cells. Also, NiMH batteries will not perform well in high rate discharge applications, typically providing only a small fraction of the rated capacity in these instances.
"NiMH batteries also have approximately twice the self-discharge rate of NiCad batteries when in an used state. For example, when your radio is off, a 1650mah NiMH battery can discharge itself nearly twice as quickly as a NiCad battery, typically within one week. Therefore, you must charge your NiMH batteries the night before each use.
"If the charger uses a higher rate, it would have to detect when the batteries are fully charged and shut off, or risk damaging them. This would make the charger more complex, and hence more expensive. Lower charge rates than C/10 unnecessarily extend the charging time, and in fact at very low rates (below C/50) the batteries never fully charge no matter how long you wait."
2. "All NiCd cells can be trickle charged continuously, but some NiMH cells cannot, and may be damaged if the trickle charge is continued after reaching full charge. Also, the battery voltage profile during a fast charge cycle differs between the two battery types."
3. "For NiMH cells, the decrease in battery voltage (–ΔV) after reaching a peak is approximately one half that of NiCd cells, thus making charge termination based on –ΔV slightly more difficult. In addition, the NiMH battery temperature rise during the charge cycle is higher than NiCd, and the higher temperature further reduces the amount of –ΔV that occurs when full charge is reached. For NiMH cells, –ΔV is almost non-existent at high temperatures for charge rates less than C/2. "
4. "Nickel- and lithium-based batteries require different charge algorithms. A NiMH charger can also charge NiCd; a NiCd charger would overcharge NiMH. Do not leave a nickel-based battery in the charger for more than a few days. "
OP
OP
I will experiment with charging times on this after I swap the batteries. At worst, it will be an investment of less than $25 and a couple hours of my time.
As I said in the OP, the aesthetics and compact size of this flash are pleasing, especially on my vintage cameras of the 60s and 70s. This flash is also quite powerful for its size and weight. It actually might be beneficial to make the change to NiMh, as I understand that these will hold a charge longer when not in use. The whole idea is to have a manual flash of appropriate vintage to keep in my bag for the relatively rare times I need one. Sure, I could buy a modern unit with replaceable cells, but this is ever so much more fun. If I cared much about ease of use, I doubt I'd be using a manual Nikon, Pentax, or Rollei in the first place!
Thanks to you and others for all your advice.
Andy
By the way, I vividly remember when a friend of mine at school lend me his Agfatronic 320 flash, and me being quite surprised to find out that it ran on plain AA primary cells. Thus no longer having the hassle of long charging times after just exposing one film or two, as with the early flashes.
Many west-german flashes showed their guidenumber in their designation.
Bauer E 160 > GNmetric = 16.
But as back then the guidenumber was based on 18DIN, today it is GNm = 22
OP
OP
LiFe batteriesare considered less temperamental than LiPos and have a nominal voltage of 3.3, making an approx 6 V source more obtainable. A special charger would still be needed.
I do not know any electronics shop anymore that has a wide assortment of electronic parts on the racks of a walk-in store. Even in the 80's such cells were already quite special. Back then I bought them in a store specialized in NiCd-cells and -batteries, and still had to solder them together to apt batteries.
Today the sale of NiCd-cells is restricted in the EU, aside of models used for special purposes.
I don't think you will be able to find a LiFe battery that fits in the e36RE handle. The original e36RE battery measured 12V which is more closely matched by 3 cell Lipo. I'd probably not try it.
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