Replacement paper for Azo

[eumenius]

Oy vey, antschuldik mir - may I say a couple of words from my humble Jewish bell tower? Either you need the good contact paper, or no; either it's good or it's a yesterday newspaper; either you're willing to pay for it, or no. If someone is so unsure in buying just a box of paper to give it a try, what could occur if the subject were really tough? Relax, guys, that's just paper coated with some gelatine and AgCl, nothing more.

Zay gezunt, Zhenya

 

[photobum]

After 17 pages the only thing this thread has done is to show us who has a severe personality disorder. These persons absolutely, positively, must have the last word on their chosen subject. Unfortunately the names Michael Smith and Steve Simmons brings out the worst in those afflicted.

Having the last word somehow seems to them to prove that they are right. Of course if you have read the same last word one or two or three dozen times it begins to be not only boring but a rampant disease that can inflict the sane.

Stop trying to use logic or common sense because it won’t work. Let them write their 37th. Last word and let the thread die.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It seems to me that Jay has raised some valid points which are being dismissed due to some 'history' with M&P.

OTOH, M&P are the undisputed experts here and should be given the benefit of knowing what they are doing with Azo.

Also, there is no hint of deception in M&Ps proposal and Jay doesn't seem to have accused them of any, just asked some questions that have meaning in the context of the proposal.

I suggest that regardless of history we give both sides the benefit of a doubt in trying to do 'the right thing' and that is commendable and that is all that can be said.

OTOH again (The Gripping Hand), Sandy has a point as well. You have to tread softly when you have a 'history' or appear to have one.

I think that Jay meant well, and M&P are doing the right thing as far as they can with the resources they have. I think we should all be aware that Jay has brought up valid points to consider and that M&P have taken all due precautions to 'protect' their reputation and their customers money. I think that Sandy has done well to remind us not to tread too heavily or we lose credibility. It amounts to 3 positions in which everyone has tried to do the right thing for everyone concerned.

Regarding the fourth isssue, I think the other arguments about investment and etc are a red herring to the central issue of getting Azo paper into customers hands and seeing how well it works. Lets defer further discussion until then. That seems sensible to me. Lets dismiss this fourth issue for what it is worth, namely nothing.

PE

 

[Michael Kadillak]

It seems to me that Jay has raised some valid points which are being dismissed due to some 'history' with M&P.

If you have no intention of being a participant why would anyone feel a need to protect us from ourselves. We have been around the block a few times and are perfectly capable of making make these personal decisions for ourselves. To interject yourself for purely "humanitarian" or "personal interest" reasons smells to high heavens of some alternative agenda. Go troll somewhere else. In the interst of efficiency and the dissemenation of usable working experience I would rather not have to sort through all of this BS to get to something substantive that I can use in my photography.

After all, is that not what these venues are all about?

 

[Jorge]

Not everbody here has been around the block a few times, and even so Jay has as much right to express his opinion in this or any other topic as you do. If you dont like what he has to say the very simple solution is to put him in your ignore list.

It seems to me that Jay has raised some valid points which are being dismissed due to some 'history' with M&P.

If you have no intention of being a participant why would anyone feel a need to protect us from ourselves. We have been around the block a few times and are perfectly capable of making make these personal decisions for ourselves. To interject yourself for purely "humanitarian" or "personal interest" reasons smells to high heavens of some alternative agenda. Go troll somewhere else. In the interst of efficiency and the dissemenation of usable working experience I would rather not have to sort through all of this BS to get to something substantive that I can use in my photography.

After all, is that not what these venues are all about?

 

[roteague]

If you have no intention of being a participant why would anyone feel a need to protect us from ourselves. We have been around the block a few times and are perfectly capable of making make these personal decisions for ourselves.

Perhaps so, Michael. But, PE has more knowledge and experience about photographic emulsions than all of us on APUG put together. He knows the business inside and out, in ways that we could only speculate. I don't do Azo either, I shoot almost exclusively Velvia, but I have been following this thread, because I find that resurrecting a process like Azo to be fascinating.

 

[roteague]

Not everbody here has been around the block a few times....

Rightly so Jorge, I don't do Azo, I don't do pt/pd, I don't even do B&W, but it still interests me.

 

[jd callow]

Jay's original points are one thing. Picking up on the absurdity of this being an investment or purchase is altogether different. Beating it into the ground though is very par for the course.

My favorite post was the one about the prepurchase of some take out. Or was it an investment wrought with unknown pitfalls?

 

[BrianShaw]

Beating it into the ground though is very par for the course.

So, is 173 replies and 8,856 views a new APUG record... or is this thread still working toward that?

 

[Craig]

So, is 173 replies and 8,856 views a new APUG record... or is this thread still working toward that?

No record, a few threads in the soapbox have over 10,000 views and >400 replies.

 

[Michael A. Smith]

I thought I answered all of Jay's questions and "concerns." Accelerated aging tests will be made. And tests for all of the other things that need to be tested will be made as well.

 

[filmjunkie]

"Unfortunately the names Michael Smith and Steve Simmons brings out the worst in those afflicted."

Now just don't bring up Ron Wisner.

 

[DeanC]

Now just don't bring up Ron Wisner.

http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/BuyingABedSketch

 

[rhphoto]

An hour has gone by since anyone posted to this thread. Hey, if we're going for a record, somebody's got to keep it alive.

 

[clay]

I had some AZO tea at starbucks. Yummmm.

 

[sanking]

"Don't be humble - you are not that great."
Golda Meir

Regarding your snide "do something productive" comment ( the irony that you can sit and type that is hilarious), I'd be willing to bet that I'm as productive as any poster here, with the exception of PE. I work very hard, and dilligently, every day.

Jay

 

[Daniel Lawton]

Wouldn't it be funny if tommorrow Perez said it was all just a big misunderstanding and paper production of all types would resume this spring.

 

[roteague]

I had some AZO tea at starbucks. Yummmm.

Sorry, but that is Tazo, not Azo.

 

[clay]

I know. it was a joke about the weirdly designed label on their tea boxes.

Sorry, but that is Tazo, not Azo.

 

[rhphoto]

I had some AZO tea at starbucks. Yummmm.

If you Google AZO, you get a hit for test strips to detect urinary tract infections. I'll let you make of this what you will.

 

[Craig]

I had some AZO tea at starbucks. Yummmm.

I've always found the tea at Starbucks awful, only slightly above floor sweepings. Second Cup has much better tea.

 

[jd callow]

My wife brings her own tea and asks them for boiling water and milk when going to coffee houses. Most give her odd looks, but here in detroit, its easier to win the lotto than it is to get a good (or proper as my wife would say) cup-a-tea.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

I don't know much about Azo except what I've experienced by looking at a friend's Azo contact prints. When my 8x10 is ready, I suppose I'll buy a box of M&P's paper.

On the gang tackling of Jay... sheesh. I've read the whole thread top to bottom and it seems to me that those that attacked Jay are guilty of the same thing they accuse Jay of. PE is right, Jay asked legitimate questions. If the others on the thread hand't seen fit to tell the rest of APUG about Jay's 'history with MS', I'd never have guessed that Jay made those comments simply to chip away at MS's reputation.

I don't know any of you personally and specifically I don't know Jay. I am certainly not in the position to make a guess about his motivation. Nobody else is either so I'd suggest we don't.

 

[Michael A. Smith]

I really do not want to get into an argument here, but Jay's claim, that all he is doing is asking questions is a bit disengenuous. A quick (very quick) review of only his first two posts yielded these lines:

"If, on the other hand, I invest what I can in Azo, I know I'll have an excellent paper with which to work while this whole replacement scheme plays out."

Note the word "schemes." This is not, nor ever has been a scheme. It is attempt to resurrect a silver chloride paper.

And there is this one:
"Do you feel that betting on the future of a potentially inferior product is more prudent than securing a supply of a known product for personal use?"

Note his phrase, "potentially inferior product." He assumes that the new product will be inferior.

These two quote alone show that Jay's comments are not emotionally neutral, but show negativity and nastiness. What I call passive-aggressive. His questioning is not disinterested questioning, which, of course, is very reasonable.

If readers here do not see that, they are not reading very carefully.

Regarding " potentially inferior product." The replacement paper for Azo will in no way be inferior than Azo. If anything, it wil be better. if it is inferior, this paper will not come to the market and everyone's money will be returned.

 

[roteague]

Just keep plugging forward Michael. I can't see how anyone who has seen your work can think that you would settle for an inferior product. I wish the success in this venture.