Replacement paper for Azo

[jd callow]

The choice appears to be: Chase the remaining boxes of AZO or help fund the production of a replacement paper.

If I'm 'investing' 100.00 I would have to trust M & P. If I'm 'investing' 10,000 or 100,000 I might want a seat at the table. Except it realy is not an investment you are buying a product and helping ensure the continuation of a paper.



If AZO were a material I used it would be a no brainer.

 

[Jorge]

Just as with a pre-order for a known product

Not really, The Kodak and Ilford pre orders for ULF film are for a tried and tested product. In this case, you are not only taking the word of someone but you are gambling the product might be ok. If this is your idea of "benefit" to you, by all means buy all you want. Me, I would wait until all the kinks are worked out. Which I beleive is all Jay and Bob are saying....the gall of these guys!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

This is true, but personality issues aside, I think Michael is a pretty good judge of what a decent paper is, and that he has enough to lose by putting his name behind a bad product not to release it unless it's good. I might lose the cost of a couple of boxes of paper if Michael turns out to be unreliable, but he will lose much more, and there are many worse things to risk a few hundred dollars over.

 

[Jorge]

This is true, but personality issues aside, I think Michael is a pretty good judge of what a decent paper is, and that he has enough to lose by putting his name behind a bad product not to release it unless it's good. I might lose the cost of a couple of boxes of paper if Michael turns out to be unreliable, but he will lose much more, and there are many worse things to risk a few hundred dollars over.

Like I said, you want to underwrite Smith's product testing and development, far be it for me to tell you otherwise. This is the bottom line. The rest are just your guesses and evaluations.

 

[avandesande]

Unfortunatly I see a lot more of these type of deals for photographic material in the future.

 

[resummerfield]

I understand Jay’s point of view. We are being asked to underwrite a new product. But….. if we want this new product AZO (and it’s safe to say everyone here wants to see a new paper be developed), then we must take some risk. And I agree with Avandesande that this is probably the future norm. As David said, MAS has much more to lose if this venture fails. I don’t normally contact print, but looking ahead to that day when I may start, and would like an AZO paper, I’m going to invest in a box or two to help the cause.

 

[John Bartley]

It's going to take a lot of one and two box buyers to get this done, but I'd like to see it succeed and I'd like to try the paper, so I think I'm going to go for two boxes also. I'm going to look at it from a pessimists point of view and consider it a complete loss until the paper arrives.
As to the "test run" there seems to be a bit of misreading going on. MAS has said that there will be two runs, one test run and then a final run once he has approved the quality. We are to buy the product of the final run. I trust his ability to judge the paper quality.
The questions and doubts are very valid and I had the same ones running thru' my mind, but at a two box level, the risk is minimal and I've already committed to the Amidol anyway, so ..... it won't be the worst thing I've wasted $200 on.

cheers - just my $0.02

 

[skillian]

I guess I'm confused - who asked anybody to "invest" in anything here? They're not raising private equity or selling shares in a company, they're just asking people to pre order a 100 sheet box of paper. Let's pretend this paper was sitting on the shelf at B&H right now - how would you try it unless you bought a box? I understand the need to test, but you can't do that unless you buy a box of paper. All they're doing is asking for pre-orders to gauge the level of interest and determine if they can generate enough return on their own investment to bring the paper to market. This really isn't any different than the ULF film orders people are placing with Ilford right now.

 

[mark]

Holy cow!!!!!

The original post was nothing but a cheesy advertisement! MAS has yet to respond here but responded to questions on his forum after his post here. I thought sean did not allow advertisements except from sponsors and only in the sponsor portion of the site. You'ld think the original poster would try to answer some of the questions, but no. I don't see any response what-so-ever.

Yes I see a reason for posting this, but to make it legit the poster should have the balls to face the questions or at least participate in the discussion. There are two threads about this by the way. One where the OP did respond. Right now people are getting their knickers in a not over speculation that could have been cleared up right away if the original poster had more in mind besides a drive by polluting of this site with free advertisment.

Yes this bugs me. It is in poor form. It smacks of disrespect to this forum.

Of course now I'm going to hear just how nice these people are and how dare I question their motives, and this is good for the whole community etc...but look around. WHere is MAS? He was obviously around a computer when he posted. If I were asking people to help out I sure as hell would stick around to answer questions.

This is no different than if a non-sponsor posted a call for subscriptions to get a magazine off the ground.

 

[jandc]

The original post was nothing but a cheesy advertisement! MAS has yet to respond here but responded to questions on his forum after his post here. I thought sean did not allow advertisements except from sponsors and only in the sponsor portion of the site. You'ld think the original poster would try to answer some of the questions, but no. I don't see any response what-so-ever.

To be fair, the posters on the AZO forum actually asked questions about the paper and it's contrast, curves etc. The posters here asked retorical questions amounting to "how dare you ask us to fund this paper". What exactly is the man supposed to answer to these kind of questions? Any response will not be good enough and will only result in an all out flame war.

 

[Eric Rose]

I'm with JandC on this. I've had enough of MAS bashing in all of it's forms. Lets keep this forum positive please.

 

[c6h6o3]

I'm with JandC on this. I've had enough of MAS bashing in all of it's forms. Lets keep this forum positive please.

Hear, hear!

 

[mark]

To be fair, the posters on the AZO forum actually asked questions about the paper and it's contrast, curves etc. The posters here asked retorical questions amounting to "how dare you ask us to fund this paper". What exactly is the man supposed to answer to these kind of questions? Any response will not be good enough and will only result in an all out flame war.

John,
Yes I am irked with the way MAS has posted and ignored this thread. It feels like SPAM. On the other hand if he does come back and respond to questions I will know otherwise.

I suppose I see how someone might construe some posters and their comments as being antiMAS based on their history. Maybe even myself as I have questioned his business practices before.

My point was not who posted but the way it was posted. If Michael answers the questions posed or maybe comes on and makes another statement then I will have been proven wrong, and I will admit it. But as it is I stand by my posts. The first one and the second.

I think Jay posed a valid question. I do not have even 100 dollars to chuck toward a sight unseen and untested in it's final form product. I am intrigued by this venture but unless Jay's question is answered I don't see being able to justify my meager funds to preorder. I had the same question as Jay and can only speak for myself. If his answer to the question is sufficient to convince me then I will put my check in the mail. Otherwise I won't, which probably won't matter to anyone anyway.

I for one have no desire to start or participate in a flame war.

 

[Charles Webb]

I personally can't see where the purchase of one or two boxes of paper by each of us will save this venture. But I damn sure am going to buy all of it I can afford on my fixed income. Thanks Michael and Paula for giving us a chance!

Charlie.............................

 

[jandc]

John,
Yes I am irked with the way MAS has posted and ignored this thread. It feels like SPAM. On the other hand if he does come back and respond to questions I will know otherwise.

I suppose I see how someone might construe some posters and their comments as being antiMAS based on their history. Maybe even myself as I have questioned his business practices before.

My point was not who posted but the way it was posted. If Michael answers the questions posed or maybe comes on and makes another statement then I will have been proven wrong, and I will admit it. But as it is I stand by my posts. The first one and the second.

I think Jay posed a valid question. I do not have even 100 dollars to chuck toward a sight unseen and untested in it's final form product. I am intrigued by this venture but unless Jay's question is answered I don't see being able to justify my meager funds to preorder. I had the same question as Jay and can only speak for myself. If his answer to the question is sufficient to convince me then I will put my check in the mail. Otherwise I won't, which probably won't matter to anyone anyway.

I for one have no desire to start or participate in a flame war.

Mark,

How do you know when you walk into a new restaurant that the meal you're about to get is going to be any good? How do know if a paper or film you've never tried is any good? You may say that you rely on what others have said about it. But then how do you know that those that have reported on this film or paper know what they are talking about? How many papers are out there that one person hates and another person swears by? How many posts on this very forum saying film X stinks and film Y is the best thing ever created and the reverse? How many people have tried Kodak AZO and written that it's no big deal? You will never know if you like this paper unless you use it. If you buy it in advance or buy it after it hits the market your risk is the same.

We could "what if" this thing for years and get nowhere. There will always be a "what if" to any answer.

There is no logic to the question because he has already answered it. MAS has indicated on the AZO forum that test runs will be done on the production machinery before the final run is made. These test runs will be approved by MAS. If MAS approves it then it's the paper he feels is worthy of a replacement for AZO. It doesn't matter if you, I or anyone else thinks it's great. He's selling his vision of what a AZO replacement should be like. That's what anyone who puts their money down is paying for.

He specifically posted the link to the forum here and did not specify any details. His link which he posted contains the answer to the question. I really don't understand what all the fuss is.

If people hate MAS, hate the way he's going about this, are adverse to risk, adverse to putting up money on a new venture than fine don't put your money down and go about your business. If people want to support MAS, take risks, want to see a new paper born or whatever than also fine and they will put their money down and take their chances. If someone can't afford the paper or the risk that's fine too. It's all good whichever way you go and however you feel about it.

I guess the only question people need to ask themselves is if this had been done and announced by anyone other than MAS would we be having this discussion?

For myself, I'm done with the "what ifs" and won't continue to post on this thread.

Regards,

John

 

[Nathan Jones]

John, right on! This is history in the making, right here...

 

[Aggie]

The horse you're beating is beyond hamburger and reeks. If you want to support the effort fine, if not so be it. To whine incessantly just makes you look petty and small besides needing to grow up. No one is forcing you to buy the paper. Yeah a few questions have been raised, but the way they are being stated, I think MAS has found his stress level is less if he just plain refuses to come back. He linked the discussion to his site. I'm sure the questions have or are being discussed there. Unless you have been banned.

 

[Daniel Lawton]

I agree with Aggie. If you want to try the paper and think it might be a worthwhile investment then do so. If you'd rather wait and see then go ahead and wait. I don't see the point of making it a personal issue and trying to derail the man's efforts. If I was an AZO user I'd buy a box out of curiosity and if I found it subpar I'd try something else just like any other photographic product I try. Personally I don't see anything unethical about someone posting info on their contact paper in the contact printing forum. Considering the remaining supplies of AZO are probably going to vanish much faster than some seem to think, I would imagine more contact printers would be interested.

 

[skillian]

Jay - you just don't get it. The guy asked people if they are interested in pre ordering some paper and gave collectors the option to buy his work at a reduced price. It doesn't take a Wharton MBA to realize that neither of these things constitutes an investment in anything. If you want to wait until people have chattered ad nauseum on this board about the merits and problems with this paper before you place an order - then knock yourself out. In the meantime, it would be more helpful if you would quit characterizing this situation as anything different.

As for why he hasn't responded - who knows? Some of us have a life outside of hanging out on this board all day. He said he was traveling when he wrote it. Likewise, I leave in the morning for a week in Death Valley so I won't have the displeasure of watching this thread spiral further out of control.

 

[sanking]

I am with JandC, Daniel, Aggie and Nathan on this.

If you want to try the paper, do so.

If you want to wait, do so.

If you never plan to buy anything from Michael because you have a personal grudge with him, just admit it and avoid the blatant dishonesty.

But if you are here to simply criticize Michael Smith, shove it or take it to the Soap Box. This forum does not need any more hypocrisy in the general forums.

Sandy

I agree with Aggie. If you want to try the paper and think it might be a worthwhile investment then do so. If you'd rather wait and see then go ahead and wait. I don't see the point of making it a personal issue and trying to derail the man's efforts. If I was an AZO user I'd buy a box out of curiosity and if I found it subpar I'd try something else just like any other photographic product I try. Personally I don't see anything unethical about someone posting info on their contact paper in the contact printing forum. Considering the remaining supplies of AZO are probably going to vanish much faster than some seem to think, I would imagine more contact printers would be interested.

 

[Donald Miller]

I feel very certain that if I had announced this venture, I would be expected to answer all of these questions and more. Anyone capable of objectivity can read this thread, the questions raised, and the responses to those questions, and determine for themselves where the passion lies. Those of us who've raised legitimate questions have been chastised and attacked personally for doing so, and this is a matter of record. Whenever MAS is questioned, regardless of merit or tone, the questioner is deemed to be "bashing" by those who so fervently and unquestioningly support MAS. It is a pattern older than this site. So be it. Good luck to you all.


Jay

Jay,

I agree with what you have said. In fact I find more merit in the questions that you have posed then I find in the blind faith that some have in Michael Smith's claims.

I have no axe to grind on this matter. I have however many years in the business sector...having started and operated several business ventures. I have never had the cajones to ask someone to invest in what some would consider to be snake oil ventures.

There are many fine papers available today. Some that I and others view as certainly capable of expressing our vision.

I wish Michael and Paula all the luck in the world. I, however, think that had this been a business venture that had merit it should have been funded by someone in the financial sector. This quasi attempt at business financing is almost embarrassing in it's floundering attempts at legitimacy.

 

[sanking]

Donald,

That would be "cojones" (balls), not "cajones" (drawers, crates).

Paradoxically, people who are afraid to take risks fall into the "sin cojones" category. On the other hand, folks who have a lot of "cajones" simply have a lot of storage space.

Sandy

Jay,

I I have however many years in the business sector...having started and operated several business ventures. I have never had the cajones to ask someone to invest in what some would consider to be snake oil ventures.

 

[jd callow]

Just to get a few facts straight.

Donald, based upon previous posts you have an axe to grind.

Jay, I honestly believe it wouldn't matter if it was M&P or someone else. You would respond in a similar manner.

Everyone here is pretty smart and responsible. I'll bet they can figure out the pros and cons all by themselves.

 

[Donald Miller]

Just to get a few facts straight.

Donald, based upon previous posts you have an axe to grind.

Jay, I honestly believe you when you say it wouldn't matter if it was M&P or someone else.

Everyone here is pretty smart and responsible. I'll bet they can figure out the pros and cons all by themselves.

John,

Since you made a representation, I would appreciate your backing it up with facts. If that is not too much to ask of you.

 

[Donald Miller]

Donald,

That would be "cojones" (balls), not "cajones" (drawers, crates).

Paradoxically, people who are afraid to take risks fall into the "sin cojones" category. On the other hand, folks who have a lot of "cajones" simply have a lot of storage space.

Sandy

Sandy,

Thanks for clarifying that for me...I do not now nor have I ever had the balls to ask someone to do this...Maybe that is a personal failure on my part, or maybe it is just being reasonable and respectful...be that as it may.