Replacement paper for Azo

Michael A. Smith · Jan 26, 2006

We are now taking orders for the replacement silver chloride paper for Azo.

Details can be found on the Azo Forum at:

Dead Link Removed

If anyone wants me to post full details here, I will be happy to do so.

Mike Lopez · Jan 26, 2006

Right on cue!

mark · Jan 26, 2006

good luck

fhovie · Jan 26, 2006

Order is placed - thanks Michael for doing this

Michael Kadillak · Jan 26, 2006

Please.....

Michael and Paula make their living printing on silver chloride paper. I trust that what is happening behind the scenes to their satisfaction is more than good enough for me.

I will make my commitment very soon and I hope that others will do the same.

DeanC · Jan 26, 2006

Michael Kadillak said:
I will make my commitment very soon and I hope that others will do the same.

I'll be discussing it with my checking account tonight. My only open question is where I fall between the 1, 100 sheet box of each and 1 500 sheet box of each boundaries right now.

sanking · Jan 26, 2006

Jay,

I don't agree with your comments about Michael's purchase of the Super-XX stock. Super-XX was (is for those who still have still have some of it) an outstanding film, with a very straight line response and excellent expansion and contraction potential. Moreover, it is an ideal film for printing on AZO, and it is also an ideal film for DBI because of its relatively slow response, so in every respect it is almost perfect for the kind of developing and printing Michael and Paula do. I tested some of Michael's remaining stock of Super-XX a couple of years ago and it was still performing extremely well for their purposes. It did have a bit more B+F than I would like for alternative printing, but for AZO you could just print through the fog with no problem.

So in my opinion there was no mistake made at all. Michael was familiar with the film and making the purchase gave him a personal supply that has lasted for over fifteen years. And as a result he and Paula have been able to concentrate on making photograhs instead of wasting their time testing new films in order to find something compatible with their work flow.

I personally am of the opinion that TMY is a superior film in several very important ways. But for the kind of work Michael does Super-XX was, and still is, as close to perfect a film as you can get.

Sandy

jdef said:
Michael K,

Do you feel that betting on the future of a potentially inferior product is more prudent than securing a supply of a known product for personal use? Didn't MAS do just that when he bought the remaining supply of SXX? In my opinion, MAS bet wrong on that one, and would have been better off switching to TMY, but TMY was developed and manufactured by the world's leader in the production and QC of B&W film, and not by an untested, unproven, unknown entity.

Jay

jd callow · Jan 26, 2006

OT SXX is very nice film and nothing like the T max films.

photo8x10 · Jan 26, 2006

Hi,
I'm waiting for an answer to Michael and Paula about payment( I have any problems with international checks, I'm Italian and so a bit mor difficult with the banks) before to place my order. :confused:
I think it's a beautiful news, but I've a little doubt, How many sheets to buy?
Choose a box of 500 or one of 100 sheets? :rolleyes:
I usually print enough, and maybe 500 are better than 100, but what quantity do you have decide to buy?

Best

Stefano
Italy(Tuscany)

skillian · Jan 26, 2006

Jay's point about wanting to test something is valid, but the smallest quantity you can order is 100 sheets so why not begin your testing by ordering a box? No offense, but how can you test any material if you don't try the stuff? If youre curious about trying those new cage-free chicken eggs at the grocery store, they wont sell you a single egg you buy a dozen and give them a shot.

I've been saying for years that Kodak's exit from traditional materials would be the best thing to happen to fine art photographers because it signals a shift in the supply chain to passionate, like-minded niche players who are actually targeting us as the primary customer. "Artists", "Enthusiasts" - whatever you wish to call us, we are not Kodak's customer, although they have been happy to take our money. The professional and consumer markets have always represented the overwhelming customer base and now that these markets are migrating - no, RUNNING to digital technology, the market that remains is far too small for Kodak to justify. Rightly so, they are a public company with shareholders to please.

However, the market that remains is now wide open for passionate, knowledgeable people like M+P to step up and fill in the gap. These folks wish to produce and sell products that are targeted for our consumption, not prepress houses or hospitals or advertising agencies or schools, but photography enthusiasts and artists who are concerned with an aesthetic rather than solving some business problem.

So rejoice! This is a glorious day! Its 2006 and were seeing the birth of the first new silver chloride photographic paper in perhaps 50 years or more. How can we be anything less than excited about that prospect!?!?

Meanwhile, test the stuff and reserve judgment until youve seen your own prints on the drying rack.

Billy Bob · Jan 27, 2006

I think Jay has a very valid point about testing the material before investing in it. I would require test material to make the kind of investment M&P are looking for. I would never even come close to considering investing thousands in a product that I can't even see, feel or try. The facts are that some manufacturing is sloppy and how can you feel confident when you don't even know who's manufacturing the paper? EKC has some of the most stringent quality control out there. It seems to me the whole process is sketchy and questionable. They can't even afford to have a sample made and actually this first run is a sample run, according to what I have read. The product will require manipulations to make it right! You're counting on getting a perfect product on the first sample run? Michael have you put the mechanical emulsion on paper yet using the machinery that will be used in manufacture? I would think they would have looked for investors along time ago to support the production of this product. Why wait until the last minute? You must buy now or ELSE. Anyway it is great to see a new chloride paper possibly coming to market but the circumstances are a bit funky.

photobum · Jan 27, 2006

Jeeez, Not for nothing but it's 85 bucks for a box of paper. Nobody said you have to front thousands. Even after (if) the paper is made and is found to be suitable you still would have to pay 85 bucks for a box of paper for your own testing or use. Or do you want a package of 10? That's not happening. If you don't have the money or want some remaining #2 fine.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way. I'm placing an order for some #3 and I don't even like the guy. Paula's a doll though.

Jim Moore · Jan 27, 2006

Are you kidding?

:confused: :rolleyes:

Billy Bob said:
I think Jay has a very valid point about testing the material before investing in it. I would require test material to make the kind of investment M&P are looking for. I would never even come close to considering investing thousands in a product that I can't even see, feel or try. The facts are that some manufacturing is sloppy and how can you feel confident when you don't even know who's manufacturing the paper? EKC has some of the most stringent quality control out there. It seems to me the whole process is sketchy and questionable. They can't even afford to have a sample made and actually this first run is a sample run, according to what I have read. The product will require manipulations to make it right! You're counting on getting a perfect product on the first sample run? Michael have you put the mechanical emulsion on paper yet using the machinery that will be used in manufacture? I would think they would have looked for investors along time ago to support the production of this product. Why wait until the last minute? You must buy now or ELSE. Anyway it is great to see a new chloride paper possibly coming to market but the circumstances are a bit funky.

Billy Bob · Jan 27, 2006

I'n really not kidding. Most products go through any number of revisions before being produced. This emulsion has never even been put on paper before, according to what i read. Its only been hand applied, right? For that reason I would be a bit worried about product consistencty, especially on future batches. If you're desperate for chloride paper then it'll probably be fine but I hesitate to buy any product thats not been produced or actually not even made yet. According to what I've read you are paying for the first sample run of this material. The paper stock hasn't even been nailed down. They must be just putting it on whatever they have on hand at the time be it 1,2 or 3 weight. I'm sorry but that leads me to be a bit skeptical, that's all. Michael is asking artists to spend hard earned money on an untested product. Go ahead and order it if you have the money to burn. I'll certainly try it after the initial product has been released and I've read some comments. I would first like to read the Azo printers critique of the paper before buying.

Jim Moore · Jan 27, 2006

I don't think anyone is asking the average Joe Blow to put up thousands of dollars to fund this. Have you actually done any research into what is going on with this? Have you been to Michael and Paula's web site and read about it? From reading your posts I would say that you have not.

I don't have the $$$$'s to buy huge quantities but I will be buying a few boxes to help. 11x14 and 20x24 size. If it's as good as we all hope I will stock up the freezer.

Billy Bob said:
I'n really not kidding. Most products go through any number of revisions before being produced. This emulsion has never even been put on paper before, according to what i read. Its only been hand applied, right? For that reason I would be a bit worried about product consistencty, especially on future batches. If you're desperate for chloride paper then it'll probably be fine but I hesitate to buy any product thats not been produced or actually not even made yet. According to what I've read you are paying for the first sample run of this material. The paper stock hasn't even been nailed down. They must be just putting it on whatever they have on hand at the time be it 1,2 or 3 weight. I'm sorry but that leads me to be a bit skeptical, that's all. Michael is asking artists to spend hard earned money on an untested product. Go ahead and order it if you have the money to burn. I'll certainly try it after the initial product has been released and I've read some comments. I would first like to read the Azo printers critique of the paper before buying.

Jim Moore · Jan 27, 2006

I think fhovie said it best in another thread.. I hope you don't mind me quoting it here.

There are those that lament what is now gone and then there are those that take a gamble to preserve it. Then there are those that let everyone else take the gamble to preserve something great and benefit from their initiative. But shame on those that take advantage of the benefits of others who gamble and then comment on the foolishness of taking risks.

jd callow · Jan 27, 2006

Jim Moore said:
I think fhovie said it best in another thread.. I hope you don't mind me quoting it here.

And me repeating it.

fhovie said:
There are those that lament what is now gone and then there are those that take a gamble to preserve it. Then there are those that let everyone else take the gamble to preserve something great and benefit from their initiative. But shame on those that take advantage of the benefits of others who gamble and then comment on the foolishness of taking risks.

What an excellent statement. Good on ya fhovie!

Jorge · Jan 27, 2006

OTOH sometimes good questions are dismissed or judged "nasty" simply because of who they come from.

IMO Jay makes some good points, but given his history with Smith his message is being ignored.

Jim Moore · Jan 27, 2006

Jorge said:
OTOH sometimes good questions are dismissed or judged "nasty" simply because of who they come from.

IMO Jay makes some good points, but given his history with Smith his message is being ignored.

It's not Jay that I have issues with.........

Jorge · Jan 27, 2006

Well, either Jay or Billy Bob, either way their comments seem very valid to me. As I see it Smith is asking Azo users to underwrite product development and testing without any benefits to them, saying so should not be grounds for telling off someone......

Donald Miller · Jan 27, 2006

I think that Jay is asking valid questions. If I were going to invest in this venture then I would think that it is reasonable to ask those questions.

Hand coating a paper and arriving at a result is a different matter then machine coating the paper and having it be the same.

I am not judging Michael's and Paula's ability to judge. I am saying that this whole matter seems to be very much "in process" at the present time.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 27, 2006

Jorge said:
As I see it Smith is asking Azo users to underwrite product development and testing without any benefits to them

In a sense, he is asking users to underwrite product development, but if the manufacturer can't produce a quality product, I think Michael is trustworthy enough and has enough of a reputation at stake to return the money, and if the manufacturer comes through, then the benefit to the user/investors is the paper they've paid for.

Jorge · Jan 27, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
then the benefit to the user/investors is the paper they've paid for.

This must be the Microsoft way of thinking then....I should be grateful to be able to have the stuff and pay them on top of it.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 27, 2006

Jorge said:
This must be the Microsoft way of thinking then....I should be grateful to be able to have the stuff and pay them on top of it.

I don't see why. The price of the paper is not exorbitant compared to other premium papers or the product it replaces. Just as with a pre-order for a known product, I'm paying for the amount I'm purchasing, and if the product is produced, I'll get what was advertised, and if the product is not produced, I'll get a refund.

I'll buy a few boxes, and if it's good, I'll buy more, and if not, then I won't.

avandesande · Jan 27, 2006

Michael represented the uncertainty of what is going on fairly well. It is being made by an established manufacturer who knows very well how the hand-coated papers scale up to production. I doubt very much the paper could be a complete dud, and if you don't like how it prints dump it on ebay.

Replacement paper for Azo

Michael A. Smith

Mike Lopez

mark

fhovie

Michael Kadillak

DeanC

sanking

jd callow

Moderator

photo8x10

skillian

Billy Bob

photobum

Jim Moore

Billy Bob

Jim Moore

Jim Moore

jd callow

Moderator

Jorge

Jim Moore

Jorge

Donald Miller

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Jorge

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

avandesande

Replacement paper for Azo

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency