Repairs: Who pays that price?

Andreas Thaler

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Yesterday I spent eleven hours repairing a Nikon F4.

The aperture control had to be cleaned and lubricated.

Complications included milling out a screw for the tripod plate and the exposure compensation knob. Its little spring for the safety button came out and I needed time to put it back in.

Without complications and with the right practice, it goes faster, let's say a nine-hour workday including a final functional test.

At an hourly rate of EUR 120/USD 130, that would be EUR 1080/USD 1170. Spare parts and materials not taken into account, tax included.

For this I can get three nice F4s on the second-hand market. I'm not going to consider whether these also have the aperture problem.

Who pays that price?

I now understand better why workshops usually refuse to carry out such repairs.

So there is no choice but to do it yourself.
 
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Don_ih

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You can't charge by the hour to repair a camera. If you expect to make a living doing something like camera repair, you have to give standard prices for repairs. Then you hope that the camera you are repairing can be done quickly. So, most of the time you do repairs that can be completed in 2-3 hours. Every now and then, you get one that takes too long. It's the same in any such business. Any time you offer a price for a particular service, you have the possibility that there will be complications that will make the work take longer. You won't be in business very long if you can't live with that.
 

koraks

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Don_ih said:
You can't charge by the hour to repair a camera.
Click to expand...

Yeah, standard rates are the norm, and they make sense for the reasons you mentioned. It should all even out in the end across many repairs, most of which are hopefully relatively simple.

Also:
Andreas Thaler said:
At an hourly rate of EUR 120/USD 130
Click to expand...

That's the kind of rate you'd expect for a mid-echelon freelance engineer doing things like production automation for manufacturing companies, a mid-level business consultant (small project/few hours), a junior legal counselor you hire through a law firm, getting work on your BMW done at a dealership etc. It's not the representative rate for an analog camera repairman. I'm afraid that they will have to make do with 35% to 50% of what you mention, making up the difference in non-monetary 'rewards' such as being passionate about what they do, job satisfaction etc. A lot of things happen in society because of the simple fact that we like to do it that way, or don't want to do it any other way. Many times, that trumps pecuniary rewards - at least to an extent. And personally, I think that's a good thing; it's one of the very few truly hopeful aspects of society.
 
OP
OP

Andreas Thaler

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Even if you can do this kind of work on old equipment quicker with practice, it's not an easy job, something can quickly break or be forgotten. And there won't be many people who take on this task. So I understand that appropriate fees are charged for this kind of work.

It's sad that many people are paid less than the value of their work. But on the other hand, who can afford it and who is prepared to do it when the second-hand market is well supplied?

It's actually an issue in our society.
 
OP
OP

Andreas Thaler

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koraks said:
Yes, that how it goes with such things.
Click to expand...

Therefore:

Repairs: Why DIY?

I think that when you're doing DIY, you always have to be clear about what you're doing, why and how. After all, it's a very time-consuming activity. It would not only be presumptuous, but at least naive, to believe that you can service or repair a camera according to the only valid standard -...
www.photrio.com

 

Donald Qualls

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Another "advantage" of being a freelance repairer is that your overhead is typically much lower than if you were working in a shop -- so you can charge the customer something close to your actual wages (maybe 20% above that to cover rent for your hole in the wall, if you're not working in a piece of a home you'd be paying for anyway) and still operate above break even while paying yourself a decent wage.

That is, my employer expects me to earn them at least twice what they pay me in wages and benefits -- they'd like more than that, of course -- but a freelancer like most camera repairers is fine if they're charging, on average, wages plus space rental plus parts costs. Sure, better if they can put something away every month -- but they won't go under if they don't manage that for a few months in a row.
 

retina_restoration

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$130 USD PER HOUR? You're not serious, I hope.
I don't believe there is a camera repair technician on Earth that makes anything close to that figure. If - as a repair tech - you are getting $20 per hour, you're doing well.
 

BrianShaw

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I would hope that camera repair people either have other income streams or are quite adept at living frugal lives.
 

Paul Howell

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Like car repairs, camera repair by the type of repair makes money, the odds are that the camera tech will get many jobs that are simple and takes very time to off set the jobs that are more complex and takes more time than anticipated. OP is a very advanced part timer (?) not a professionally trained tech. If back in day of Nikon trained techs who were factory trained to work on the F4, wonder how long it would have taken for the job repair. The other issue, so I pay say $500 for a similar repair, the camera is 40 years old, what goes bad next?
 

Chan Tran

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Andreas Thaler said:
Even worse
Click to expand...

If your labor is $20 an hour you have to charge $80 as a business. If you work for some outfit and earn $20 an hour. That outfit has to provide you benefit and assume all responsibility for your work. So the $130 is reasonable for me.
 

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I do charge per hour for professional equipment. For amateur cameras and projectors I try to install forfait prices, 600 Swiss Francs for example for the overhaul of a Paillard-Bolex H.

The work can never be done in a session, I need to put parts in solvents, buy missing things, even make a special tool sometimes. No more for the H cameras to which I am entirely adapted.

I deem it important to at least try to come into a talk with clients about values. Somebody may have found an antique film projector at a thrift store, is excited about its aura, feels the wish to make it function. Or an Eclair 16 camera. Suddenly real money is asked. Not everybody begins to deliberate the future of the deal. Sell an item later? Use it for good?

I know what’s included in the price (and explain that). Overhead costs are bigger than what people would think.

So they get something back that functions. It’s always worth the investment since I accompany the job with all the information I gather. For instance can I tell whether somebody had already worked on an item. Some cameras have faults from the very factory, say a wrongly sized washer in a place or too strong a spring or whatnot. I detect shorts in motor windings, clogged oil bores to plain bearings, an image aperture that should be wider.

We live after the 20th century. That was a consumer age without discussion. Buy, use, throw away. Today we can retrieve stories behind the smelling pieces. I find that quite rewarding for both sides.
 

RalphLambrecht

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+1 right on the money!
 

Don_ih

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Europan said:
I do charge per hour for professional equipment.
Click to expand...

Professional equipment is a different story. That is equipment that is being used to make an income and has to be in working order. Companies will typically pay maintenance and repair costs that quickly exceed the original price of the equipment - and that's not being wasteful, since they could rightly anticipate paying those same costs for new equipment after a short while. Professional equipment tends to be used heavily.
 

Maris

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Twenty years ago my old pal Eric Owen who was the go to guy for professional camera service used to charge $450 up front flat rate to repair a camera, any camera. This was towards the end of his career when he didn't want a backlog of repairs delaying his retirement. The deal was you got your camera back fully repaired or you got your camera back unrepaired and the money was returned. This kept him busy enough but not too busy.
 

Pieter12

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My go-to techs both charge by the hour, both will give me an estimate before starting work. Last time I had work done, I think the rate was $75/hour.
 

OrientPoint

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In hourly contract work, you rely on enough jobs being simple (takes you 15 minutes, but you get to bill 2 hours) to cover the ones that go south (takes you 6 hours and you can only bill 2). Sometimes you have to "eat the hours", as they used to say in Brooklyn.

In the past, I would imagine you could do ok in the camera repair business because the much greater volume provided enough "simple" and profitable jobs to cover overhead and problem jobs. You could also sell film and accessories into a much larger market. Now it's just small-scale boutique work for enthusiasts. Lots of downside, not so much upside.

It seems like there are two types of repair outfits going today: semi-retired repairmen like Ross Yerkes and Frank Marshman who are extremely reasonable and probably doing it for just the pleasure (and a bit of spending money), or profit-making enterprises like Harry Fleenor or Nippon Photo Clinic that charge what this work actually costs.

We live in an era where working the register at McDonalds pays $20/hour in some areas, and kids out of school are asking $75/hour to do web design. I know some people find the $700 Fleenor Rolleiflex CLA inexplicable and excessive (and it's not something I can afford myself), but I can totally understand why Fleenor & Son would want to ask an hourly rate worthy of a skilled craftsperson.
 

RezaLoghme

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I hold any kind of technician, watchmaker, dentist etc. in highest regard. You are not paying them for the hours they are working on your camera, but for the many hours of previous practice.
 

Philippe-Georges

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retina_restoration said:
$130 USD PER HOUR? You're not serious, I hope.
I don't believe there is a camera repair technician on Earth that makes anything close to that figure. If - as a repair tech - you are getting $20 per hour, you're doing well.
Click to expand...

A few weeks ago, I got the brake pads replaced of my VW T5, the mechanic, in a fully equipped but non brand garage, did it at €50.-/h, the pads (Bosch) costed €320.- for the 4 wheels, total €495.-.

The repairing of my Hasselblad A12, a broken spring, by a Hasselblad factory trained technician, costed €125.-.
 

koraks

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Philippe-Georges said:
the mechanic, in a fully equipped but non brand garage, did it at €50.-/h
Click to expand...

That's affordable. Generic garages around here generally charge €70-€80/hr. Dealerships €100+.

I once pointed out to a client that they expected me to do work that required about a decade of training/higher education and advanced degrees (i.e. a PhD) for less than what the local mechanic charges. They had "never looked at it that way" (we parted ways).
 

Nitroplait

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Over time, I think I have paid close to as much for repairs and overhauls of my Leica equipment as I have paid for the actual cameras and lenses.

I am OK with that because I enjoy using them, but I also think it is much easier for me to mentally accept the cost of repair because of the value the repaired Item.
€450 for a repair of a Leica M2 for which I paid €900 seems acceptable, another CLA 10 years later may be slightly annoying but, again, acceptable.

My larger collection of Nikon cameras and lenses has not required nearly as much service - hardly any actually, but if it did, I would be very reluctant to pay €450 to have a Nikkormat FTn overhauled - even though the overhaul may require as much time, experience and attention as the M2, and even though the FTn gives me as much pleasure.

Obviously, knowing that an FTn in good working condition rarely sells for more than €100 and therefore repair costs above that amount would never be recouped in a future transaction is clearly a barrier - even if I haven't a future sale in mind.
Needless to say that I am very happy that Nikon seems to be less service demanding than Leica ;-)

Aside from the entusiast/hobby repair people, it seems like the few remaining professional repair techs are consolidating on the high value cameras such as Leica, Rolleiflex etc. probably for the reason that charging a fair price for the actual work involved is more acceptable to owners of those more valuable cameras.

I actually have a few Nikkor's with slightly dry focus-throw which I would love to learn to re-grease myself - as I simply cannot mentally justify the prices I have been quoted. I would have no qualm having the same work done on my Leica lenses - talk about discrimination.
 

Don_ih

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Nitroplait said:
it is much easier for me to mentally accept the cost of repair because of the value the repaired Item.
Click to expand...

That's what it ends up coming down to. There are a thousand undervalued cameras for every highly valued one. Pentax, for example, (other than the hyped K1000) almost never sells for what anyone would call a premium. But they are excellent cameras and lenses. More and more of those will fail and never be repaired.
 

ic-racer

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Isn't minimum wage in USA more around $13 rather than $130, so the cost should be $117 for the repair.
 
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