Repair shops getting overwhelmed.

Minolta93 · Apr 27, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@Minolta93 that is a great question. I was wondering too, and I have found several online services that can 3D print metal parts at extremely high precision (0.02 mm resolution) using wide variety of metals, even titanium, and their prices are getting lower quite rapidly. I have not tried any of them personally, however, but it is evident to me that this industry is evolving quickly. So I am hopeful.

Yes I've seen those as well and could be a great idea for camera repair, among other things. It would certainly help to have the ability to design parts that you'd need, though. The thing about metal printing is the prints seem to be quite porous due to the nature of the sintering process that they use. Perhaps these parts may not be a good fit for all applications, but certainly they'd have their uses.

And besides metal, practically any part on a camera that's made of polymer could be printed at home, and even things that were metal may be replaced if needed. I have seen people 3d print a part and then use that to create a mold and cast it from aluminum or brass at home.

paulbarden said:
Although the component is called a "spring" in the manual, its not a typical coil spring (see: https://retinarescue.com/images/rangefinder/07advance.jpg), and it wouldn't be simple to fabricate. You can purchase the part from Micro-Tools.de but the price is 56 Euros plus shipping. It is easier to locate a parts donor camera and steal the spring from it.

I figured it was some sort of leaf spring--is it just that small bent piece of metal there? I'm sure someone who has experience fabricating these parts could do it, but as for the average person trying to fix a camera, I'm not so sure. Although that image is different from my Retina IIa, mine is a type 150 as far as I know looking at the serial number, and the film advance doesn't have a lever, just a knob. I think the camera was produced in 1939. The spring is probably similar between models, right?

removedacct1 · Apr 27, 2021

Minolta93 said:
Yes I've seen those as well and could be a great idea for camera repair, among other things. It would certainly help to have the ability to design parts that you'd need, though. The thing about metal printing is the prints seem to be quite porous due to the nature of the sintering process that they use. Perhaps these parts may not be a good fit for all applications, but certainly they'd have their uses.

And besides metal, practically any part on a camera that's made of polymer could be printed at home, and even things that were metal may be replaced if needed. I have seen people 3d print a part and then use that to create a mold and cast it from aluminum or brass at home.

I figured it was some sort of leaf spring--is it just that small bent piece of metal there? I'm sure someone who has experience fabricating these parts could do it, but as for the average person trying to fix a camera, I'm not so sure. Although that image is different from my Retina IIa, mine is a type 150 as far as I know looking at the serial number, and the film advance doesn't have a lever, just a knob. I think the camera was produced in 1939. The spring is probably similar between models, right?

If yours is a knob-advance type, then there is no frame counter spring in it. Those are only in the IIa model with the fast wind lever.
If your frame counter doesn’t work, it’s likely because of grease and dirt accumulating under the top cover. It’s also possible it’s been broken by being forced by someone who didn’t know how to operate the camera.

grat · Apr 27, 2021

There are a number of options-- CNC, either laser or cutter, or 3D printing a part, and using that part to make a mold via lost casting. Some time ago, on Jay Leno's garage, his team was 3D scanning an existing part, loading it into a 3D editing package, fixing the damage and wear, and then sending it off to a machine shop to be turned into a physical replacement part.

In the most extreme example, they were able to produce a new cylinder head for a Duesenberg.

Not cheap, but getting cheaper by the day.

Auer · Apr 27, 2021

This is pretty cool:

https://www.youtube.com/c/ClickspringClips/videos

benjiboy · Apr 28, 2021

momus said:
I've had so much trouble w/ "expert" camera repair people over the last 20 or 30 years it's not even funny. This was my normal experience: Inability or refusal to communicate, charging more than the estimate, and less than stellar repair work.

To address this craziness, long ago I decided that my cameras would be of two varieties.....the ones that could be repaired by me, and the ones that could be economically replaced. This philosophy fixed a continuing problem that never seemed to get any better. After a while you figure out cause and effect.

Wondering when you'll get your camera back for long periods of time and having to send it back to be fixed properly is NOT part of the photographic experience.[/QUOTE
I don't know about the U.S but in the UK law an estimate isn't legally binding because it's a round and about , a quotation is. I always insist on a written quotation from any tradesman I employ.

Minolta93 · Apr 28, 2021

paulbarden said:
If yours is a knob-advance type, then there is no frame counter spring in it. Those are only in the IIa model with the fast wind lever.
If your frame counter doesn’t work, it’s likely because of grease and dirt accumulating under the top cover. It’s also possible it’s been broken by being forced by someone who didn’t know how to operate the camera.

I see. I'd assume it's the latter, but hopefully soon I'll get around to opening it up and I can see what's really going on.

removedacct1 · Apr 28, 2021

Minolta93 said:
I see. I'd assume it's the latter, but hopefully soon I'll get around to opening it up and I can see what's really going on.

Be aware that the film ADVANCE knob is left hand threaded, so to get it off it is turned clockwise (the opposite direction of the arrow). You MUST put a spanner in the nut at the top of the inner wind shaft to stop it rotating when you remove the advance knob or you will do serious damage to the mechanism! The film rewind knob is right hand threaded, so to remove it you put something through the forks to stop it rotating and turn the knob counter-clockwise. Both the Advance and the Rewind knob have to come off to get the top cover off! There is likely a tiered (mushroom shaped) knob on the top of the shutter release as well, and that also has to come off to get the top cover off. Once all three of these knobs are off, you simply remove the screws on each end of the top cover. However, there's one more thing: to get the top cover wriggled off the shutter release shaft, the shutter should be cocked, and the sprocket must be rolled (to the right) to lock it in the ready-to-fire position, press the release shaft down with the tip of a small screwdriver, and when its pushed all the way down, you can wriggle the top cover off. Its often tight and takes some fussing to get it lifted off: getting it over the A-R lever can be a trick.

ciniframe · May 9, 2021

Interesting thread. I’ve always thought that the demise of film cameras would be more tied to the demise of the last repair persons. Plus of course lack of spares etc. Seems like the most reliable camera now will be a simple, homemade 4X5 box camera, with either a pinhole or simple lens. And the film will be photo paper so that with tiny stops, in the f45 to f90 range the shutter will just be a black card that slips into a slot behind the lens. Kinda kills action photography but with a few film holders, a tripod, and an afternoon a few hours of contemplative enjoyment could be obtained. Darkroom requirements to develop and contact print are really bare minimum and not expensive with a little thought.
Oh yes, don’t forget to bring along the umbrella and notebook, you at least definitely need a notebook and pen.

bluechromis · May 9, 2021

It's too bad there can't be opportunities for young people to apprentice with expert techs to learn the trade. You might say, why bother? There's no future in it. But if you look at the vast number of occupations where the human workers are being reduced or eliminated, it puts in in a different perspective. Self-driving trucks my reduce the need for truck drivers. Fast food clerks are being replaced by automated kiosks, etc., etc. I'm not sure the prospects for a limited number of repair tech's in niche industry is that much worst than many other occupations.

Huss · May 9, 2021

bluechromis said:
It's too bad there can't be opportunities for young people to apprentice with expert techs to learn the trade.

Precision Camera Works 'recently' advertised to take on/train camera techs.
Harry Fleenor has his son working with him now.
Walters Camera Repair in LA has young doods working for them (the old guy passed away a few years ago)
Eric Hendrickson (Pentax) has people working for him apparently - that was the excuse he gave me when my LX was returned b@ggerd up..

It seems the 'real' camera repair businesses are on-going concerns.

bluechromis · May 9, 2021

Huss said:
Precision Camera Works 'recently' advertised to take on/train camera techs.
Harry Fleenor has his son working with him now.
Walters Camera Repair in LA has young doods working for them (the old guy passed away a few years ago)
Eric Hendrickson (Pentax) has people working for him apparently - that was the excuse he gave me when my LX was returned b@ggerd up..

It seems the 'real' camera repair businesses are on-going concerns.

Good to hear that.

Arthurwg · May 9, 2021

Just saw that The Great Gus Lazzari of TLC Camera Repair, a tech recommended by Ken Rockwell, has posted that he is no longer taking repairs until he clears his shelves of existing work. This is getting serious. .

removedacct1 · May 9, 2021

After one year doing Retina repairs, I am now working on at least 3 cameras every week and the volume is going up. Chris Sherlock is having to pause the influx of cameras periodically, to avoid overfilling his workshop.

film_man · May 10, 2021

For those that know, how long would a full strip down of a camera and rebuild take? For example, in the UK people charge £150-200 for a CLA and rangefinder alignment for a Leica M. If that a CLA like that is a couple of hours work that is a pretty good earner. I suppose repairs can take a lot longer and you're not charging much more so it averages to more modest sums...?

btaylor · May 10, 2021

I have also been wondering what the average time for a CLA is by an experienced tech. Usually their overhead is low because they work out of their homes. If it is a 2 hour job I think that would be about right for $150-200. The Pentax guy’s cost is really low (thanks!), I sent one of my Rolleiflex to a brick and mortar shop, I think it was about $250. It’s gotta be a real balancing act for the repairers to keep their prices low enough so that they don’t get that “I’ll just get another one” yet hopefully high enough to attract new technicians as the older ones retire. For certain cameras and technicians I am willing to spend a lot more- significantly exceeding the cameras monetary value- because I know it is still a bargain compared to what it cost new and it’s what I want to use to take pictures. I just hope we have great techs for years to come.

removedacct1 · May 10, 2021

film_man said:
For those that know, how long would a full strip down of a camera and rebuild take? For example, in the UK people charge £150-200 for a CLA and rangefinder alignment for a Leica M. If that a CLA like that is a couple of hours work that is a pretty good earner. I suppose repairs can take a lot longer and you're not charging much more so it averages to more modest sums...?

When I service a Retina IIIc for example, the camera gets stripped completely down to its components, shutter included. Everything gets cleaned, what needs lubricating gets new lube, and reassembled. This model usually takes me 10-12 hours in total. That includes the extra hour or so I often spend addressing cosmetic issues like regluing leatherettes and removal of Zeiss bumps, etc. Cameras that need extra attention (fixing or replacing damaged parts, for example) can take up to 14 hours in total. I expect most complete servicing offered by others involves as many hours, assuming its a complete strip down and cleaning.

The earlier Retinas do not include a fancy rangefinder and shutter/film advance linkages, so those can take as little as 7 hours to service. The Retina II and IIa often take about 9-10 hours.

In this photo, the shutter has already been completed, so it is not shown in its disassembled state.

removedacct1 · May 10, 2021

Old Gregg said:
I have long been wondering what "CLA" even means, and I think I've posted a question here earlier. Apparently a CLA comes down to "whatever a tech thinks is right". This can be a 10-minute cleaning with some electronics cleaner, or a full disassembly, re-lubrication and re-assembly.

It is always a good idea to ask the service personnel exactly what is involved in their proposed "CLA" of any given camera/shutter before committing to the service. There are indeed some who will gladly spray the shutter with 'Lectra-Clean' and charge you $65 for it, calling it done. If that's all you're getting for your money, you deserve to know beforehand, so ask.

film_man · May 11, 2021

paulbarden said:
When I service a Retina IIIc for example, the camera gets stripped completely down to its components, shutter included. Everything gets cleaned, what needs lubricating gets new lube, and reassembled. This model usually takes me 10-12 hours in total. That includes the extra hour or so I often spend addressing cosmetic issues like regluing leatherettes and removal of Zeiss bumps, etc. Cameras that need extra attention (fixing or replacing damaged parts, for example) can take up to 14 hours in total. I expect most complete servicing offered by others involves as many hours, assuming its a complete strip down and cleaning.

The earlier Retinas do not include a fancy rangefinder and shutter/film advance linkages, so those can take as little as 7 hours to service. The Retina II and IIa often take about 9-10 hours.

View attachment 274213

In this photo, the shutter has already been completed, so it is not shown in its disassembled state.

Thanks for that photo and explanation!

removedacct1 · May 11, 2021

film_man said:
Thanks for that photo and explanation!

Your welcome. Perhaps I should demonstrate the disassembly of a shutter, to show what’s involved in a shutter CLA. Would that be of interest?

Alan Edward Klein · May 11, 2021

MattKing said:
I have concerns about the long term availability of experienced and reliable repair resources.
That being said, it seems to me that one of the effects of the lockdowns and other responses to the current, once in a lifetime (I hope) worldwide pandemic is that there is a great likelihood that many people would want to get their cameras fixed.
As my wife refers to it, an example of a "pandemic project".
The current demand might very well ebb a bit after things normalize.

It might be that many new people are taking up film photography and there are a lot more cameras that need CLA. Aren;t there people in Japan that do this stuff a lot?

Wayne · May 13, 2021

So what do y'all think is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a repair, and when does it cross over into unreasonable?

removedacct1 · May 13, 2021

Wayne said:
So what do y'all think is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a repair, and when does it cross over into unreasonable?

The only “unreasonable” wait time is one that exceeds the repairman’ s longest estimate.

Wayne · May 13, 2021

paulbarden said:
The only “unreasonable” wait time is one that exceeds the repairman’ s longest estimate.

I doubt that anyone gives "longest estimates" they just give estimates or say "at least x amount of time"

logan2z · May 13, 2021

Wayne said:
So what do y'all think is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a repair, and when does it cross over into unreasonable?

When you've forgotten that you sent it in, it's been too long.

Alan Edward Klein · May 13, 2021

logan2z said:
When you've forgotten that you sent it in, it's been too long.

Worse is when the repaired camera arrives after you bought a replacement.

Repair shops getting overwhelmed.

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