rental darkroom / split filtering / nyc

allenying · Jul 16, 2015

hi, i'm not sure which sub thread this should go in.

i just tried to print 16x20s from a 35mm b&w negative at a rental darkroom in nyc - my color darkroom.
their b&w darkroom uses color enlargers, with dials for CMY to dial in various contrast filters for multigrade papers.
i tried to print with split filtering, exposing at 3 filter for blacks, and a 2nd exposure at 0 filter for highlights,
but i was not confident that turning the dials was not moving the enlarger slightly, especially since the dials were a bit stiff.
i started noticing some blur in the parts of the print that were exposed twice,
but then it was strange because i tried to compare it with a single exposure print, and that also started coming out blurry, while previous test strips and previous sessions of printing this negative were not blurry, it was strange, and i was very careful, but something was moving, and then i gave up due to the split filtering.

so my Qs are,
1) does anyone successfully print with split filtering on a color enlarger, being able to adjust the color dials and not move the enlarger?
2) or with an enlarger that uses filter gels to slide in and out, without moving the enlarger?
3) are there any rental darkrooms in nyc with ilford multigrade enlargers? the ones where you can punch in the filter on the control pad?

thanks in advance,
allen

Sirius Glass · Jul 16, 2015

I use split filtering on my color enlarger without any blurring or shifting.

Rick A · Jul 16, 2015

At the magnification you were at, the enlarger head was possibly vibrating or getting bumped out of focus by you changing the dials. Even bumping the counter the machine sits on causes vibration that shows as blur. There are many things that can cause vibration in the DR, walking (depending on floor construction) refrigerator running near by (even in next room), cooling fan in enlarger head, etc.

ic-racer · Jul 16, 2015

Try a glass negative carrier.

naaldvoerder · Jul 16, 2015

ic-racer said:
Try a glass negative carrier.

I assume, you think this will eliminate "negative popping"?

bdial · Jul 16, 2015

I've successfully used split filtering with the color head on my 4x5 LPL. Though not at that magnification. However, as Rick and others implied, there are a lot of reasons you could get some softness and turning dials on a sturdy enlarger is likely the least of the possible causes.

If you aren't using the split filtering for a dodge or burn you can just use a single filter setting and avoid the issue.
Another alternative would be to buy a set of multigrade filters and bring them with you.

allenying · Jul 16, 2015

thanks,

i also received a suggestion via private msg that the lamp could be heating the metal holder, causing it to expand and move the film, especially at a longer exposure.

i was originally at f8, 18s @ 3, + 18s @ 0 with dodging, which was sharp in the area only getting the 1st 18s exposure.
then i went to f11 to be able to dodge more accurately during the 1st exposure, and was at 30s + 50s, with dodging during both, which was then blurry.
then i did a test at 30s @ 2, single exposure, and it was blurry as well.
maybe by then the temperatures were fluctuating enough to cause movement?

i was careful about not touching the table, but i did walk a bit as i've often been in communal darkrooms where walking wasn't a problem.
the enlarger has a fan built in that was on, and every now and then there was a ventilation fan going on in the room.

i guess glass holders and the below the lens filters don't affect image quality?

as for split filtering, i hadn't tried it, but i was curious about testing exposing an entire image at 5 filter, and then the entire image at 0 filter, with different exposure times for each. my theory was the 5 would print the blacks, and the 0 would print the highlights, i guess you're saying even at varying exposure times, it doesn't really achieve any benefits without doing dodging/burning?

thanks!

Bob Carnie · Jul 16, 2015

I use colour heads and condenser heads for split printing

I think a glass neg holder is mandatory
Rental darkrooms will be suspect for negative stage alignment so this could be an issue.
Most likely the head or top column is not braced which can be troublesome with vibration when you are changing filters.

If you have these three things covered then using a colour head for split printing is easy peasy.

have fun.

allenying said:
hi, i'm not sure which sub thread this should go in.

i just tried to print 16x20s from a 35mm b&w negative at a rental darkroom in nyc - my color darkroom.
their b&w darkroom uses color enlargers, with dials for CMY to dial in various contrast filters for multigrade papers.
i tried to print with split filtering, exposing at 3 filter for blacks, and a 2nd exposure at 0 filter for highlights,
but i was not confident that turning the dials was not moving the enlarger slightly, especially since the dials were a bit stiff.
i started noticing some blur in the parts of the print that were exposed twice,
but then it was strange because i tried to compare it with a single exposure print, and that also started coming out blurry, while previous test strips and previous sessions of printing this negative were not blurry, it was strange, and i was very careful, but something was moving, and then i gave up due to the split filtering.

so my Qs are,
1) does anyone successfully print with split filtering on a color enlarger, being able to adjust the color dials and not move the enlarger?
2) or with an enlarger that uses filter gels to slide in and out, without moving the enlarger?
3) are there any rental darkrooms in nyc with ilford multigrade enlargers? the ones where you can punch in the filter on the control pad?

thanks in advance,
allen

allenying · Jul 16, 2015

thanks, are your color dials pretty smooth? i felt like the dials on the enlargers i tried were a bit stiff.

the darkroom suggested letting the film and carrier get to a consistent warm temperature before each exposure, instead of using a glass carrier... to avoid more layers with dust on them.
they've been there a few decades... so i'm not sure which would be better...

Sirius Glass · Jul 16, 2015

I only touch the filter dials and the print timer switches. The surface of the filter dials is grooved and rough.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 16, 2015

I just started to split grade printing after years of printing and changing grades with my Beseler 45S dichro head. I got tired of dialing the filtration for the shadow and then highlight exposures that I went on Ebay and bought a used set of Ilford VC filters. Made things a lot easier. Most enlarger has a filter holder under the lens board so maybe look into buying a set. Here's a sethttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Ilford-Multigrade-Filter-Set-/171846632178?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

I only use split grade technique only if there's a lot of burning and dodging with a print.

DREW WILEY · Jul 16, 2015

Obviously the colorhead has to be well braced and you can't disturb the paper easel either between exposures. No big deal. I can make identical split prints using either a colorhead or colored filters below the lens. All you need is deep blue and deep green high quality glass
filters. Gels might affect image quality below the lens, as opposed to above the negative carrier (where you'd have to be even more careful
than merely re-dialing colorhead settings! Changing filters in the dark takes some practice, though most b&w papers will tolerate certain
red or orange safelights. But split printing takes some practice to get used to. I recommend it as a supplementary technique to basic VC
printing using less strong intermediate Y vs M filtration.

allenying · Jul 16, 2015

so those ilford ones are glass then?

i really think the dials were too stiff on the enlargers i tried, a couple dials were smoother, but some were too stiff. none of the enlargers had all 3 smooth dials.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 16, 2015

No. The Ilford filters are plastic or gelatin. If you get them wet, you'll damage them.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 17, 2015

for spli-grade printing,You are better off using cleanunder-the-lens filters.Yhey are less likely to disturb your setup

Bruce Osgood · Jul 17, 2015

Hello Allen;

Your questions that I can offer an opinion ...

so my Qs are,
1) does anyone successfully print with split filtering on a color enlarger, being able to adjust the color dials and not move the enlarger?

I use only a color head enlarger for B/W printing. Much of my printing is done using Yellow and Magenta filtering separately. I feel I am successful at it.

2) or with an enlarger that uses filter gels to slide in and out, without moving the enlarger?

Not me, they hold the filter beneath the negative and some people feel this is not to the best advantage.

3) are there any rental darkrooms in nyc with ilford multigrade enlargers? the ones where you can punch in the filter on the control pad?

I don't know. We have a very well equipped darkroom rental here in Brooklyn named Gowanus Darkroom that rents Omega enlargers up to 8X10.

allenying · Oct 16, 2015

hi,
thanks for all the responses, i thought i posted a followup earlier, but i guess i didn't,
i didn't get a chance to hit the darkroom again until today anyway.

i tried bushwick community darkroom, it seemed great from what i could see online, and relatively affordable at $12/hr,
but i found out as a community darkroom, it's not the best for final exhibition or sale prints, if you're going for perfect and clean, which not everyone is in the darkroom.

i had issues with:
dirty tongs (the previous rental darkooms i used had clean tongs so it didn't cross my mind to bring my own)
light falloff that wouldn't be remedied,
they don't have filed out carriers to get a slim black border, which wasn't crucial for the photo attempted today, but there are many photos i would only print with borders.
i tried their glass holder, which has marks on it, and i'm pretty sure they were showing up, i didn't waste time continuing testing to find out for sure, and put the film in a standard carrier. i'm not even positive that the glass was holding it tight, it was able to slip around if tilted. i would almost rather tape the film to one sheet of glass, or maybe make film carriers out of stiff illustration board to get the film borders... has anyone tried that? otherwise buying and filing out carriers will be the only option.

i bought a set of below the lens filters on ebay, the screw holes are stripped, assuming they're not supposed to be... but they're plastic so what can you expect, and i think it won't matter too much. i didn't use em yet, changing the filter on the b&w enlarger didn't seem as bad as turning dials, and i didn't get far enough to do split filtering before deciding to not finish there.

they informed me, which i think is true so far, that the b&w enlargers don't generate as much heat, and the lamp is further away from the film.
they also have a premium private room, for $25/hr, that has an ilford multigrade enlarger, and doesn't see as much traffic as the communal one.

does gowanus darkroom only have color enlargers for b&w?

there are so many factors with equipment to consider, it would be easier to just pay someone to make the prints, but i'm hoping i don't have to resort to that.

thanks!

RalphLambrecht · Oct 16, 2015

bdial said:
I've successfully used split filtering with the color head on my 4x5 LPL. Though not at that magnification. However, as Rick and others implied, there are a lot of reasons you could get some softness and turning dials on a sturdy enlarger is likely the least of the possible causes.

If you aren't using the split filtering for a dodge or burn you can just use a single filter setting and avoid the issue.
Another alternative would be to buy a set of multigrade filters and bring them with you.

under-the lens-filters work indeed better for split-filtering than color-filter dials on color heads.. also , a bracket from the top of the enlarger column to the wall increases enlarger rigidity.

Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2015

allenying said:
they don't have filed out carriers to get a slim black border, which wasn't crucial for the photo attempted today, but there are many photos i would only print with borders.

Not something that I would ever want or use. I have refused to buy filed out carriers.

allenying · Oct 16, 2015

what is it about filed out carriers that you don't like?

Rick A · Oct 16, 2015

I have a filed out 35 mm carrier for my D-6 that I've only used a couple of times. Personally, I really don't care for the look.

M Carter · Oct 16, 2015

I've been happy using the 00/5 split filter printing (though I'll use a 3.5 or whatever if the print works without splitting). Great section on this in "way beyond monochrome".

But I got tired of worrying if I was bumping things too much with the filter drawer (Beseler 67, not the sturdiest thing around). So I got 52mm camera filters which rest perfectly in the under-lens red filter holder. They're glass and can be cleaned easily so I know I have spotless filters under the lens, and the metal rims make it Ok to set them down on the baseboard.

I use CC50m and a Yellow Y(K22). On my light box they're a close match and so far they've worked fine. Found them on eBay for about 5 bucks each, I keep them in their filter cases when not in use.

Bruce Osgood · Oct 16, 2015

allenying:

"does gowanus darkroom only have color enlargers for b&w?"

No, I think if you give them a call they will eagerly answer your questions.

Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Not something that I would ever want or use. I have refused to buy filed out carriers.

allenying said:
what is it about filed out carriers that you don't like?

Rick A said:
I have a filed out 35 mm carrier for my D-6 that I've only used a couple of times. Personally, I really don't care for the look.

Nor do I. At best they look amateurish; at worst a sloppy attempt by the photographer to impress anyone with their lack of skill.

allenying · Oct 17, 2015

i would agree for sloppy borders, but not for clean thin film borders, which still require a filed out holder. i'd prefer to keep this thread about darkroom practices, and not get too into opinions on borders or not, i only asked why one wouldn't use a filed out holder because with the direction of the convo it sounded like maybe there a technical mechanical issue.

it turns out that gowanus darkroom has filed out holders, as well as one ilford multigrade enlarger. i didn't print yet, but i loaded the film in to check out the variuos issues i had at other darkrooms. when i took the film out after setting it up and testing, the metal carrier was warm, so it looks like i'll have to keep an eye out for heat moving the film. but overall it seemed cleaner and more put together and organized than bushwick community darkroom. i'm excited to try printing there.

rental darkroom / split filtering / nyc

allenying

Sirius Glass

Rick A

ic-racer

naaldvoerder

bdial

allenying

Bob Carnie

allenying

Sirius Glass

Mainecoonmaniac

DREW WILEY

allenying

Mainecoonmaniac

RalphLambrecht

Bruce Osgood

Membership Council

allenying

RalphLambrecht

Sirius Glass

allenying

Rick A

M Carter

Bruce Osgood

Membership Council

Sirius Glass

allenying

rental darkroom / split filtering / nyc

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