Renew My Faith Please ...

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

nc5p said:
The industry has been trying to make video cameras look like film for over 20 years. Ikegami claimed back in the mid eighties that one of their cameras looked like film. That was back when they were using saticon tubes. The electronic cameras still to this day have a problem with highlights. This is why even some tv shows are still shot on film. The cameras have got better but a lot of cinematographers still prefer the look of film, even though much of it is processed and immediately converted into digital for posting.

Doug

I can't deny it, but the thrust of my argument is that the manufacture of film, or lack of same, will drive what happens next to the movie industry, not the relative merits of film versus video.

I also don't deny the superiority of film, but since when has that meant anything to the hungering millions who buy cheap digicams to snap madly away at Aunt Edna's birthday party?

It is a shame that technical superiority is not the determining factor, and that the long-term survival of film is not in the hands of those who love it.

Andy K · Jun 28, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
... and that the long-term survival of film is not in the hands of those who love it.

Here in Britain it is.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

Andy K said:
Here in Britain it is.

Ilford make a lot of color film, do they?

Terence · Jun 28, 2006

Rob Skeoch said:
Digital is great for working but who wants to sit in front of a computer for a hobby after working in front of one all day.
-Rob Skeoch
bigcameraworkshops.com

Rob, that's exactly the reason I give when people ask me why I still shoot film. Glad to see I'm not alone.

haris · Jun 28, 2006

Steve Smith said:
If my experience is anything to go by (which it usually isn't) I think we will see a slight increase in film use in the future rather than a decline.

I have owned film cameras since I was about ten (I'm 41 now) starting with an Agfa folder then progressing through Nikkormat to Nikon and had always done a bit of photography. However, I didn't get fully into photography until I received a digital compact as a christmas present. This was followed by a Nikon D100 which has now been displaced by a Bronica ETRS, a Rolleicord, a home made 5x4" and numerous other e-bay bargain film cameras some of which I have modified to take film that they were never inted to take.

There, I've admitted it, digital made me a committed film user! Does anyone else have similar experiences? ...... No?..... Just me then!

Steve.

Ten years ago started my photography journey. I got a job in daily newspapers. My job was DTP, and in first year or two, exclusevly Photoshop, scanner, and digital manipulation of images. After few months working, I bought myself Canon EOS500N, followed by Yashica MAT 124, Canon EOS3, Mamiya RB67proS, got as gift Konica AutoS2, and I am waiting to see if I would have to pay for two more lenses for Mamiya. If I do then I wil have to wait about month, if not then after a week I am going to buy Pentacon six TL with 80mm lens which is waiting for me...

Steve, you are not only one who after digital start decide to go film route...

Andy K · Jun 28, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
Ilford make a lot of color film, do they?

I was responding to your statement: 'and that the long-term survival of film is not in the hands of those who love it.' Didn't see any mention of colour there.

Anyway, Ilfochrome is still available.

naturephoto1 · Jun 28, 2006

Andy K said:
I was responding to your statement: 'and that the long-term survival of film is not in the hands of those who love it.' Didn't see any mention of colour there.

Anyway, Ilfochrome is still available.

Andy,

But for Ilfochrome, in most instances it is used as a photo paper, but their are a small number of people that load it into sheet film holders and photograph to Ilfochrome as a positive.

Rich

Simon R Galley · Jun 28, 2006

Just a small further contribution to this interesting thread...ILFORD started coating glass plates in 1879...I have just been to our specialist coatings area today and seen... er glass plates being coated, or rather I did'nt because it was dark....but you know what I mean.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Steve Smith · Jun 28, 2006

naturephoto1 said:
But for Ilfochrome, in most instances it is used as a photo paper, but their are a small number of people that load it into sheet film holders and photograph to Ilfochrome as a positive.

I met someone last month who does this with his Thornton Pickard plate camera.

Steve.

DougGrosjean · Jun 28, 2006

Terence said:
Rob, that's exactly the reason I give when people ask me why I still shoot film. Glad to see I'm not alone.

Me too. You're not alone.

I work on computers all day. I shoot film for fun.

DougGrosjean · Jun 28, 2006

FWIW, I don't know any of the players here.

But I read Wiggy's piece. He makes a lot of valid points.

One other thing to consider - real estate costs money. Companies are out to make a profit. How they use the real estate they've got to make that profit, counts too.

IOW, if they can make a profit of $1k per square foot per month on the factory that makes film, but that same factory could make a profit of $2k per square foot per month making copiers, there's a good chance that factory will end up making copiers.

I doubt Wiggy will turn out to be totally correct. And I love to shoot on film. But I've got a hunch that on many of his points, he's pretty close to being correct.

Oh, and the buggy whip analogy is bad. Buggy whips are sold as long as it is profitable to do so. Nothing more, nothing less - that's all there is to it.

Logical outcome:
Film costs will rise. We'll shoot less of it, but when we do use it it'll be for something we really care about - not so casual as we use it today. In some number of years, the mainstream snapshooters will think of film users the same way we think of glass plate users.

unregistered · Jun 28, 2006

Simon R Galley said:
Just a small further contribution to this interesting thread...ILFORD started coating glass plates in 1879...I have just been to our specialist coatings area today and seen... er glass plates being coated, or rather I did'nt because it was dark....but you know what I mean.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited

So does that mean Ilford is going to start selling coated glass plates?

Cool. Sign me up

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 28, 2006

Buggy whips seem to be in ample supply--

http://www.kee-port.com/drivingwhips.htm

http://www.drivingessentials.com/Fiberglass_Whips.htm

http://www.smuckersharness.com/pg65.html

http://www.phssaddlery.com/whips.htm

http://www.bennington.co.uk/carriages/driving-accessories.htm

Dead Link Removed

http://www.usg-reitsport.de/start/i...0.0.0.0.0.0.0&CAT_ID=86&pixchecked=1&pix=1024

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
Buggy whips seem to be in ample supply--

And the bar to entry for making buggy whips is what? Some simple components, all of which are available on the consumer market? The investment required to start up such a business is minimal, wouldn't you agree?

Assuming one has a modicum of basic skills, one can make a buggywhip in one's garage or workshop, yes?

Can the same be said of film? I think any honest answer must be 'no'.

That is why I often refute the 'there are still buggywhips, therefore there will always be film' argument. The mere existence of one nearly-lifeless technology does not predicate another will survive as well.

unregistered · Jun 28, 2006

"Can the same be said of film? I think any honest answer must be 'no'."

One can coat a photo emulsion onto a surface and use it quite well...just like film. Hell you could even coat it on clear accetate if you wanted. So yes, the same can be said of film. It might not be easy but it can be done.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
"Can the same be said of film? I think any honest answer must be 'no'."

One can coat a photo emulsion onto a surface and use it quite well...just like film. Hell you could even coat it on clear accetate if you wanted. So yes, the same can be said of film. It might not be easy but it can be done.

Have you tried?

Ron Mowery, a retired Kodak engineer who reckoned maybe he could make his own film, went about attempting it. He is a heck of a lot more experienced at this than I am, probably more than you are, and he was able to get access to some of the hardware needed to make the stuff. I understand it was fairly miserable. To the best of my knowledge, he is no longer attempting it - someone correct me if I am wrong.

Glass plates, yes.

Here is an interesting attempt:

http://www.dyetransfer.org/images/DyeTran.pdf

Looks do-able, but unfortunately, some of the chemistry must be purchased from Kodak - they were the sole supplier. Eastman Chemical makes biodiesel now, so you won't be buying that from them.

Can it be done? Sure, anything can be done.

Will it be done? No, I don't think so. I suspect that there will be a few highly-touted attempts, funded by frantic film-lovers, and doomed to crushing defeat.

It is not economical to make quality film in low quantities now. It will be less so when the factories are churned, the chemicals are no longer made, and the expertise retired, deceased, or moved on.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 28, 2006

Ron Mowrey (AKA "Photo Engineer") has been posting on APUG about his coating experiments, and he's offering workshops on basic emulsion making and coating.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
Ron Mowrey (AKA "Photo Engineer") has been posting on APUG about his coating experiments, and he's offering workshops on basic emulsion making and coating.

I was unaware that Ron was posting here as well. Thanks for that. I note that he is offering blades and workshops, and has reported that he has been able to make ortho-sensitive film in the 10-25 ISO range - a huge step forward. I could well end up eating my words.

I am interested in how commercially viable such attempts might be, and at what cost. In any case, we're talking about B&W here, yes?

Anyway, time will tell. I will stand by my words for now, advised though I am that I may be wrong.

BrianShaw · Jun 28, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
Ron Mowrey (AKA "Photo Engineer") has been posting on APUG about his coating experiments, and he's offering workshops on basic emulsion making and coating.

But can he make me a 25 sheet box of Plus-X 4x5 for about $19? Gosh, I miss that stuff!

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 28, 2006

Good report on Ron's workshop here--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

unregistered · Jun 29, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
Have you tried?

Ron Mowery, a retired Kodak engineer who reckoned maybe he could make his own film, went about attempting it. He is a heck of a lot more experienced at this than I am, probably more than you are, and he was able to get access to some of the hardware needed to make the stuff. I understand it was fairly miserable. To the best of my knowledge, he is no longer attempting it - someone correct me if I am wrong.

Glass plates, yes.

Here is an interesting attempt:

http://www.dyetransfer.org/images/DyeTran.pdf

Looks do-able, but unfortunately, some of the chemistry must be purchased from Kodak - they were the sole supplier. Eastman Chemical makes biodiesel now, so you won't be buying that from them.

Can it be done? Sure, anything can be done.

Will it be done? No, I don't think so. I suspect that there will be a few highly-touted attempts, funded by frantic film-lovers, and doomed to crushing defeat.

It is not economical to make quality film in low quantities now. It will be less so when the factories are churned, the chemicals are no longer made, and the expertise retired, deceased, or moved on.

Do you have a positive mental attitude about anything? Or do you, like your avatar suggests, walk around grumpy and dismissive about everything?

It sure seems like it.

Geez man, take a pill or something.

unregistered · Jun 29, 2006

"...advised though I am that I may be wrong."

Nice escape route you have set up there.

eubielicious · Jun 29, 2006

I've been watching this thread with some interest. I think Wiggy's not entirely wrong in his assessment of the film industry as a whole. However, I think that saying that film will eventually die is a bit like saying that anything will do so. I could suggest the same is true of, say, the compact disc. You know the old cliche 'the only constant is change', and it is very likely that some technology emerges in the next 10-20 years which will supersede what we now think of as 'new' such as today's digicams.

Wiggy stated early on in this thread that the problem with film is that there's no innovation and that in effect, the development of film (in its wider sense!) has ground to a halt. Well, maybe. Fundamentally the use of film hasn't changed much for some time. Strangely enough, this may be the one thing that keeps film going for some time to come.

You know that if you buy a 35mm or MF camera today that as long as film is being produced then you'll be able to get film for your camera, and your use of your camera is unlikely to change a great deal. It may get a bit more expensive but it'll be there.

Digital is still a constantly changing field with many competing technologies. It remains to be seen which of the technologies will eventually win out and become the standard. So, if I were to go out and buy a SACD player, for example, I don't actually know for sure that it will be useable in 10 years time.

In short, I would say that - yes, film may well eventually die out - but since that's true of anything we are using today, it's hardly worth worrying about.

Besides I also know that my Zeiss Ikon folder and my Speed Graphic will be capable of making great images long after my consumer digital camera (bought for ebay, honest guv) has gone into landfill or has been recycled etc.

Euan

Wigwam Jones · Jun 29, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
Do you have a positive mental attitude about anything? Or do you, like your avatar suggests, walk around grumpy and dismissive about everything?

It sure seems like it.

Geez man, take a pill or something.

Evidence suggests to me that "Positive Mental Attitude" in this sense is bunk. Nothing I can say or do will change the situation one whit. It literally is what it is. Since my attitude cannot affect the outcome, all things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 29, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
"...advised though I am that I may be wrong."

Nice escape route you have set up there.

Would you prefer I have a closed mind? I did not take a stand, my friend. A stand is for an army, a battle, John Wayne. I did not choose a side and challenge everyone to a fight.

I have an opinion; it may be contrary to yours. I defend it with logic and insight, and I expect everyone who has an opposing opinion will do the same. I am not emotionally married to my opinion, I just happen to believe that it is the most probably outcome, given the information that I have.

I am quite aware that opinions are often wrong. I base mine on the best information I can obtain. When and if that information changes, I must re-evaluate. If the information changes enough, so does my opinion.

Renew My Faith Please ...

Wigwam Jones

Andy K

Wigwam Jones

Terence

haris

Andy K

naturephoto1

Simon R Galley

Steve Smith

DougGrosjean

DougGrosjean

unregistered

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Wigwam Jones

unregistered

Wigwam Jones

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Wigwam Jones

BrianShaw

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

unregistered

unregistered

eubielicious

Wigwam Jones

Wigwam Jones

Renew My Faith Please ...

haris

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Moderator

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