Refurbishing 9x12cm plate holders (so far)

[Kino]

A couple of years ago, during my desperate search for 9x12cm film holders for my Voigtlander AVUS, I purchased a lot of very crusty Soviet Era plate holders.

Very shortly thereafter, I located a few actual Voigtlander plate holders with film inserts, so I set these aside and promptly forgot about them. After running across them again a week ago, I thought I should explore trying to refurbish these plate holders in the off-chance I should ever get around to making dry plates with liquid emulsion.

Taking one holder, I first removed the light-trap strip, which was a bit of red, short fiber velvet glued to a strip of cardboard, which was in turn, glued to the holder itself. It was very dry and popped-off the holder intact.

I then separated the dark slide from the holder and soaked them both overnight in about 2 cups of Evaporust in a covered container to remove all the residual rust. This also had the nice effect of partially removing some of the loose black paint, so it was a bonus. Since Evaporust is reusable, I filtered this back through a coffee filter into the storage jug and lost only only a few spoonfuls in the process.

After Evaporust soak:

I then liberally coated the holder in Citristrip paint stripper, wrapped the parts in cling wrap and let soak overnight.

It took two rounds of paint stripper to totally remove the black finish (2 days) with a scrubbing of hot soapy water after each round of scraping. After the last scrub with hot soapy water, I then placed the parts in my film dryer, turned it on high and let it bake the holder dry.

Here are the results so far:

I didn't take a photo of the dark slide, but the results were identical.

I still need to determine a proper replacement for the velvet strip and find a type of durable, hard paint to re-paint the holders. My only concern is where the dark slide rubs along the groove; maybe I will leave that clear to avoid paint flaking off and contaminating the holder? Not sure yet.

Once I get this process down, I want to see of I can find some very thin aluminum plate stock and fabricate some film sheaths. They look very simple, but I have a feeling they will be difficult to reproduce within specification.

 

[Romanko]

This is a fun project. Thank you for sharing. To be honest I would just use the holders in their original condition. They are not pretty but will easily last another 80 or 90 years. Is there a reason why you want to use aluminum instead of steel for the film sheaths/inserts?

Are your Voigtländer film inserts compatible with Ленинград holders?

 

[Romanko]

find a type of durable, hard paint to re-paint the holders.

Japanning?

 

[Kino]

This is a fun project. Thank you for sharing. To be honest I would just use the holders in their original condition.

You're welcome.

The holders are rusty and shed rust into onto the film along with the deteriorating paint. Just not worth using in their current state.

They are not pretty but will easily last another 80 or 90 years. Is there a reason why you want to use aluminum instead of steel for the film sheaths/inserts?

Easy to cut and bend, as well as easier to find the proper thickness of sheet stock; at least in my limited research...

Are your Voigtländer film inserts compatible with Ленинград holders?

Yes, they work fine. They are actually Kodak inserts inside the Voigtlander magazines. The Soviet holders fit the AVUS fine, but they are slightly longer than the Voigtlander holders and the locking tab will allow the magazine to creep-up enough to fog the film when extracting the dark slide IF you are not careful and hold down the magazine.

Japanning?

Funny you mention that; I have been watching a YouTube channel called "Hand Tool Rescue" in which he has formulated a Japanning mixture thin enough to spray on. Yes, I might give that a try...

 

[Harry Callahan]

...

I still need to determine a proper replacement for the velvet strip and find a type of durable, hard paint to re-paint the holders. My only concern is where the dark slide rubs along the groove; maybe I will leave that clear to avoid paint flaking off and contaminating the holder? Not sure yet.

Once I get this process down, I want to see of I can find some very thin aluminum plate stock and fabricate some film sheaths. They look very simple, but I have a feeling they will be difficult to reproduce within specification.

Hm... don't get me wrong but i would get a durable paint before stripping the old paint off. Now the entire holder is prone to rust. Store dry until you get the new paint.
Also consider to paint the entire dark slide to prevent rust making it stick. I had some old and rusty plate holders and i had big problems to remove the dark slide.
Use new velvet to replace the old. Watch out for thickness of the old velvet and get according replacement.

It should be easy to find thin aluminum plate, but such a sheet holder should be flat and level. If it is not, it cannot hold the film flat and you`ll suffer problems with sharpness. It should be level to about 1/10000 of an inch and this... would be hard to do.
Also the rails of the holder, holding the film should have enough clearance so you can insert a sheet film, but they should be tight enough for the sheet film not to move. Otherwise the sheet film may slip out of position during exposure and smear your image.

 

[blee1996]

Looks like a labor of love.

If I run out of 9x12 holders for my Voigtlander Bergheil, I will probably follow your steps. There are dirty rusty 9x12 film holders for cheap on eBay.

 

[Kino]

Along with rebuilding these plate holders, there is the option to 3D print an adapter back to fit the AVUS/ "Normalfalz" type cameras and use the 9x12cm fidelity doube-sided holders. They are exactly the external size of 4x5 film holders, but internally are setup for 9x12 film.

You can find the 3D plans for the adatper here:

International back for Voigtländer Avus 9x12 by ekech

There are lots of different folding cameras for 9x12 glass plates from the beginning of the 20th century.Popular examples are the Voigtländer Avus or Bergheil cameras as well as Ernemann, Zeiss ICA, Steinheil, but there are lots of different brands and builds which are quite similar.In rare...

www.thingiverse.com

It's actually easier to find the doube-sided 9x12 holders, but the only drawback to this setup is the sketchy rubber band springs used to hold the ground glass slide onto the adapter.

All in all, it's an adventure getting these cameras working properly...

 

[baachitraka]

Nice project and I am not sure whether I will do the same.

Perhaps one day I will sand blast them, if sand blasting is accessible for me.

 

[moggi1964]

Great job.

I have also got some of the 3d printed 4x5 backs for the Bergheil to use the Linhof 9x12 holders.

9x12 for the Avus (which also fit some Bergheil's I discovered) are so hard to find.

 

[Ian Grant]

I have yet to find a paint that is as good as the original lead based paints they used years ago. You can still get these paints with a special licence, but you also need approved facilities first, and the safety requirements are stringent. A friend's son used the paints at a local factory.

The issue is modern paints ideally need a primer and the resulting paint layers is a lot thicker, more prone to chipping etc. I will ask another fiend an engineer tonight, see if he has any ideas,

As @moggi1964 mentions finding the correct fit 9x12 holders can be difficult, he popped to see me sometime ago, and we went through all my 9x12 holders and none would fit his camera. By chance, at a camera fair last month, I found 3 that might fit, he was there with a stall and camera, so a quick check and a perfect fit.

Sometimes the edge fit is not as expected, for instance I have two 9x12 KW Patent Etui cameras, while they appear the same fit, one takes holders with an unusually narrow lip, the other is more standard. It's the same with some Zeiss models.

Ian

 

[moggi1964]

I have yet to find a paint that is as good as the original lead based paints they used years ago. You can still get these paints with a special licence, but you also need approved facilities first, and the safety requirements are stringent. A friend's son used the paints at a local factory.

The issue is modern paints ideally need a primer and the resulting paint layers is a lot thicker, more prone to chipping etc. I will ask another fiend an engineer tonight, see if he has any ideas,

As @moggi1964 mentions finding the correct fit 9x12 holders can be difficult, he popped to see me sometime ago, and we went through all my 9x12 holders and none would fit his camera. By chance, at a camera fair last month, I found 3 that might fit, he was there with a stall and camera, so a quick check and a perfect fit.

Sometimes the edge fit is not as expected, for instance I have two 9x12 KW Patent Etui cameras, while they appear the same fit, one takes holders with an unusually narrow lip, the other is more standard. It's the same with some Zeiss models.

Ian

Indeed, I got lucky that day thanks to your keen eye, Ian.

 

[Kino]

I have yet to find a paint that is as good as the original lead based paints they used years ago. You can still get these paints with a special licence, but you also need approved facilities first, and the safety requirements are stringent. A friend's son used the paints at a local factory.

The issue is modern paints ideally need a primer and the resulting paint layers is a lot thicker, more prone to chipping etc. I will ask another fiend an engineer tonight, see if he has any ideas,

Ian,

Yes, therein lies the rub (and the flaking)! Looking into Black Oxide coating and Japanning as possible alternatives, but I am only an amateur coating sleuth; they may be totally inappropriate to the task at hand.

I look forward to your friend's opinion on the subject.

 

[Kino]

Great job.

I have also got some of the 3d printed 4x5 backs for the Bergheil to use the Linhof 9x12 holders.

Another drawback I forgot to mention is the need to calibrate and fabricate a new focus scale, as the ground glass adapter does not coincide with the original focal plane. Not a big deal; I just put a bit of tape down and marked infinity, 15 feet and 6 feet witness marks after viewing the ground glass with everything else a guesstimate.

9x12 for the Avus (which also fit some Bergheil's I discovered) are so hard to find.

Once you start examining these metal film holders, it becomes apparent just how much time, effort and material science went into producing these seemingly simple holders. Of course, these were made during a "Golden Age" of machine tooling when such efforts were both common and cost effective for their desired market.

If I were a Billionaire, I would waste my money on re-creating such things rather than buy a useless yacht or private airplane, but fate has not decreed such luck on me...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Are your Voigtländer film inserts compatible with Ленинград holders?

The beauty here is that any film sheath will be compatible with any plate holder the same format -- barring openings in the sheath that expose the springs in the plate holder. Film sheaths have the outside dimensions of the glass plate they replace, and all 9x12 glass plates are/were the same size, give or take a millimeter or so tolerance. All 9x12 plate holders expect the same size plate, so they'll work with any film sheath. I even (used to?) have a 3x4 film sheath that was meant to adapt a 9x12 plate holder to use then (presumably then easier to get in the US) 3x4 sheet film.

 

[Romanko]

The beauty here is that any film sheath will be compatible with any plate holder the same format -- barring openings in the sheath that expose the springs in the plate holder.

I have several plate holders from different manufacturers and film sheaths of different designs. The difference in the designs of the sheaths and the holders makes some combinations hard to use or results in the film plane being out of alignment. There are so many models and variations that the only way to know for sure if they are compatible (and easy to use) is to try a particular combination.

 

[John Wiegerink]

For paint that 100% durable as the old lead paint I have no idea. That said, one might google gun coatings for firearms. There is a coating called Cerracoat (I think) that is almost indestructible and comes in all kinds of colors. I haven't used it myself, but I have used bake-on spray enamel parts used to paint gun parts and it is also extremely rugged and doesn't chip easy.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

Great job.

I have also got some of the 3d printed 4x5 backs for the Bergheil to use the Linhof 9x12 holders.

9x12 for the Avus (which also fit some Bergheil's I discovered) are so hard to find.

I assumed that Voigtländer would have used the same holder for the Avus and Bergheil but I found out (the hard way) that there are some differences. Fortunately the adapter I 3-D printed for an Avus (to use standard 4x5 or 9x12 holders) would fit another 9x12 folder that I acquired trying to buy plate holders. Ended up designing my own for a Bergheil.

 

[JPD]

I assumed that Voigtländer would have used the same holder for the Avus and Bergheil but I found out (the hard way) that there are some differences. Fortunately the adapter I 3-D printed for an Avus (to use standard 4x5 or 9x12 holders) would fit another 9x12 folder that I acquired trying to buy plate holders. Ended up designing my own for a Bergheil.

I use the same Voigtländer holders for my Avus and Bergheil, but the cameras are of the same age, late 20s/early 30s.

 

[moggi1964]

I assumed that Voigtländer would have used the same holder for the Avus and Bergheil but I found out (the hard way) that there are some differences. Fortunately the adapter I 3-D printed for an Avus (to use standard 4x5 or 9x12 holders) would fit another 9x12 folder that I acquired trying to buy plate holders. Ended up designing my own for a Bergheil.

Yep! I had to use the 3d printed Avus back for my Bergheil which dates from the 1920's.

I would second the recommendation to look at Cerakote as a good option.

 

[baachitraka]

10x15 plate camera with dagor 165mm f/6.8

I was lucky to find more than twenty 10x15 holders with sheaths. Unfortunately only 8 film holders have perfect fit that only have a leatherette back so I am not worrying.

Others have rust and the surface have blemishes and don't know whether sand blasting will remove the unevenness and have no clue how to paint them.

 

[Kino]

I use the same Voigtländer holders for my Avus and Bergheil, but the cameras are of the same age, late 20s/early 30s.

The Voigtlander backs/plates also fit the Kodak Recomar 33 and vice-versa.

 

[Kino]

Others have rust and the surface have blemishes and don't know whether sand blasting will remove the unevenness and have no clue how to paint them.

I would try the Evaporust treatment, then wet sand with a very fine emery paper and dry with a blow dryer to prevent flash-rust.

After a lot of looking around at exotic treatments, I have decided instead to try a Black, Rustoleum High Temperature Engine spray paint on my holders and then bake them at a low heat setting for an extended period to out-gass the paint and cure it.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I would try the Evaporust treatment, then wet sand with a very fine emery paper and dry with a blow dryer to prevent flash-rust.

After a lot of looking around at exotic treatments, I have decided instead to try a Black, Rustoleum High Temperature Engine spray paint on my holders and then bake them at a low heat setting for an extended period to out-gass the paint and cure it.

Should work for a while at least. One thing I learned about painting metal plate holders was go very lightly with the paint. I actually think a lighter coat avoids chipping better than a thicker one. Good luck! Oh, and my new French holders fit like a glove. Thanks Frank!

 

[blee1996]

Just got a stash of Voigtlander and Kodak 9x12 holders with sheet film sheath! Actually the Kodak holders fit better with the Voigtlander Bergheil than the Voigtlander one.

Most of them are dusty and slightly rusty. Therefore some dark slides are difficult to move. I guess I need some lightly abrasive material to clean them. Any suggestions?

 

[Kino]

Should work for a while at least. One thing I learned about painting metal plate holders was go very lightly with the paint. I actually think a lighter coat avoids chipping better than a thicker one. Good luck! Oh, and my new French holders fit like a glove. Thanks Frank!

Good point about the paint and glad the holders worked out for you, John!