Red Window Films

guangong · Sep 26, 2023

I haven’t used a camera that required red window for advancing film since I can’t remember when. Most of my medium format cameras require either lining up the start arrow on film backing with an index on camera, then winding to first exposure or just loading and winding until camera’s sensors detect beginning of film.
However, my newly acquired ZI Super Ikonta A uses a red window. At first I thought camera was faulty because I could see nothing as I wound film through camera. Finally I examined the film. Ilford Delta 400 has such faint dainty little numbers that they are hardly visible in broad daylight.
Since I never needed to pay attention to the numbers for roll film, before wasting another roll, what 120 films have bold contrasting numbers on backing paper that are easily visible through the red window???

nosmok · Sep 26, 2023

I never have had a problem seeing the numbers on Kodak 120 films, be they long expired or new, color or b+w.

rcphoto · Sep 26, 2023

I haven't used the delta films before but i have never had issue seeing the numbers on any other Ilford films. Maybe its just that roll? Pictures of the backing paper might help

_T_ · Sep 26, 2023

There was a somewhat recent issue with backing paper manufacture due to the downsizing of global film manufacture in general. The old stock of backing paper ran out and the newly produced stuff had a problem where the ink from the backing paper was creating areas of over and under exposure where the ink was in contact with the film. To remediate this, backing paper manufacturers decreased the amount of ink they used to print the numbers and other markings, making them fainter and smaller.

Any recent manufacture 120 film is going to have small faint markings that are going to be more difficult to see than they used to be before this problem occurred. Although you might have better luck with one make over another and hopefully someone will be able to help you find something that will work better for you.

abruzzi · Sep 26, 2023

I don’t have any red window cameras so I don’t pay a lot of attention, but IIRC, Foma has darkly printed numbers.

KinoGrafx · Sep 26, 2023

I like foma films because they do white #s on black paper, very easy to see!

pentaxuser · Sep 26, 2023

What we need here, do we not, is pics of different films' backing papers so the OP can decide?

pentaxuser

John Wiegerink · Sep 26, 2023

pentaxuser said:
What we need here, do we not, is pics of different films' backing papers so the OP can decide?

pentaxuser

Pics preferably taken of the number while under the red window. I do notice that some of my folders have red windows that seem clearer than others. I'm not a big user of Foma films, but they do offer very good contrast under the red window. Hats off to them for that.

grahamp · Sep 26, 2023

I do need good light to see the Ilford numbers through the red window, so much to that I will take the camera off the tripod if necessary. This applies to my Zeroimage, and Zeiss Ikonta 6x6. You do get a feel for how many turns are involved in advancing the film. And you do get warning marks.

But it was never a /precise/ system.

bripriuk · Sep 27, 2023

I've found that Ilford film to be unusable, but Fomapan is fine.

henryvk · Sep 27, 2023

Definitely avoid Kodak Ektar 100. The numbers are extremely faint.

guangong · Sep 27, 2023

Thank you. Everbody has been extremely helpful.

Dali · Sep 27, 2023

Another vote for Arista EDU / Foma films. Never had an issue seeing the frame numbers through the red window of my cameras (Lubitel, Yashica A or Diana).

MattKing · Sep 27, 2023

I've added a small pocket LED flashlight to a couple of camera bags. That makes the difference for me, when the combination of film numbers and window make using them difficult.

David Lingham · Sep 28, 2023

I’ve put both Ilford and Foma films through my Zero pinhole and Holgas, I need to use a small folding loupe to check the film advance in the red window.

John Wiegerink · Sep 28, 2023

MattKing said:
I've added a small pocket LED flashlight to a couple of camera bags. That makes the difference for me, when the combination of film numbers and window make using them difficult.

My solution also Matt. I have a ballpoint pen that has a small penlight built into the non-writing end that goes with me everywhere now.

guangong · Sep 28, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
My solution also Matt. I have a ballpoint pen that has a small penlight built into the non-writing end that goes with me everywhere now.

Looking closely at the red window on camera, I now don’t believe that the problem is with the deep redness of the window, but rather that the window suffers scratches from opening and closing the sliding gate.(Of course, the off-white ink that Ilford Delta uses on white backing paper would be difficult to see if window were crystal clear. Today I tried Fomapan, black on white but still obscure. That’ when I realized refraction from scratches may be the problem.)

Tomorrow I’ll attempt to polish away the scratches by buffing with a Dremel.

MattKing · Sep 28, 2023

guangong said:
Tomorrow I’ll attempt to polish away the scratches by buffing with a Dremel.

Try waxing them out first.

Dan Daniel · Sep 28, 2023

guangong said:
Tomorrow I’ll attempt to polish away the scratches by buffing with a Dremel.

Be careful! That material is not glass nor a modern plastic. Most likely an acetate of some sort. Soft, easily deformed by heat such as from a high-speed buffing wheel. Use a soft wheel, slow speed, and a fine polishing compound. I often use metal polish to polish plastic, by the way. Very similar paste and grit, but watch for solvent-based carriers that can affect plastics.

Matt's wax suggestion would be a worth a try first.

EarlJam · Sep 29, 2023

Here are Kodak Portra 160 and Fujicolor backing papers.

guangong · Sep 29, 2023

Dan Daniel said:
Be careful! That material is not glass nor a modern plastic. Most likely an acetate of some sort. Soft, easily deformed by heat such as from a high-speed buffing wheel. Use a soft wheel, slow speed, and a fine polishing compound. I often use metal polish to polish plastic, by the way. Very similar paste and grit, but watch for solvent-based carriers that can affect plastics.

Matt's wax suggestion would be a worth a try first.

Dan, I have successfully buffed out the scratches, but find myself back to square one...the arrows, dots, and numbers can not be seen. This after loading a roll of Fomapan with strong black on white print. I suspect that age has caused the red window to darken considerably since
I’m always impressed by your knowledge of the mechanics of cameras. With this camera the red window resides behind a hole in the pressure plate, making access to red window impossible (There seems to be 2 screws, but access would require removing leather covering on back of camera). So, my question is: would the film’s backing paper and keeping sliding door closed when not winding film allow a small hole in red window be a possibility?

nosmok · Sep 29, 2023

I've taken out the pressure plates in a few folders-- all had the screws (or rivets) on the inside; none were Ikontas though. Maybe those bumps on the back are the other side of the rivets or screws, not the head end. I have replaced rivets holding pressure plates by drilling them out and using surplus shallow camera steel screws, threaded into the aluminum or brass backs. I've also replaced ruined red windows with stock cut from filter swatch books (one of the few perks of a film school education). There are options, it all depends on how far you trust yourself to go, given the value of your time and the camera.

Dan Daniel · Sep 30, 2023

I wouldn't be cutting a hole for clear light passage. I just don't know how much the windows do reduce the chance of fogging. nosmok's suggestion to remove the existing windows and replacing it is good. If your window is riveted into place, maybe you cut out the existing window and lay another into place?It could a little crude but it's not like you are going to spend much time looking at it under the pressure plate? Lighting gel as suggested, or cut from a junker?

cine gel sample book

Flighter · Sep 30, 2023

Following on from EarlJam here are Fomapan 200 (top) and Lomography Color Negative 100 (bottom).

guangong · Sep 30, 2023

nosmok said:
I've taken out the pressure plates in a few folders-- all had the screws (or rivets) on the inside; none were Ikontas though. Maybe those bumps on the back are the other side of the rivets or screws, not the head end. I have replaced rivets holding pressure plates by drilling them out and using surplus shallow camera steel screws, threaded into the aluminum or brass backs. I've also replaced ruined red windows with stock cut from filter swatch books (one of the few perks of a film school education). There are options, it all depends on how far you trust yourself to go, given the value of your time and the camera.

There are no Zeiss bumps on the back of my camera. The leather covering is in perfect condition. Pressure plate appears to be a single assembly with plate, spring, ets bolted to back with screws entering from back of camera or could be rivets. In a practical sense, the position of red window and pressure plate seems to be a case of one-way engineering.

Dan Daniel said:
I wouldn't be cutting a hole for clear light passage. I just don't know how much the windows do reduce the chance of fogging. nosmok's suggestion to remove the existing windows and replacing it is good. If your window is riveted into place, maybe you cut out the existing window and lay another into place?It could a little crude but it's not like you are going to spend much time looking at it under the pressure plate? Lighting gel as suggested, or cut from a junker?

cine gel sample book

Mekes sense. I’ll experiment. The window on my camera is shaped as an irregular pentagon. Not necessarily to cut out whole red window, just a little strip from the very top. The camera has a closure that slides into place, covering red window, so backing paper would only be exposed while winding to new frame.
If film shows no consequence of hole, great! If hole causes damage, then will follow your advice and find some way to patch hole with a lighter red. Thanks for suggestion.
I appreciate everyone’s suggestions and samples of backing paper. Except for my long departed and not lamented Hassy 1000F fifty years ago, I have never needed to pay attention to backing paper numbers when using MF cameras.

Red Window Films

guangong

nosmok

rcphoto

_T_

abruzzi

KinoGrafx

pentaxuser

John Wiegerink

grahamp

bripriuk

henryvk

guangong

Dali

MattKing

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David Lingham

John Wiegerink

guangong

MattKing

Moderator

Dan Daniel

EarlJam

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