Recycling Silver

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michaelbsc

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...Maybe I should say that my purpose would be to get a good metallic silver plate on the cathode. If you're more interested in investigating things, or want to produce silver sulfide, that's fine too, refiners can work with that. But I don't think anyone would do that commercially, anymore. A well-controlled electroplating system can give you a known quantity, in the form of high-purity flake, so at least you have a very good idea of what's supposed to be there.

I would certainly be interested in advice.

What I have been scheming for some time is a method to remove silver from my captured fixer for reuse. Basically unloading the fixer if possible. I was hoping to reuse the silver in a daring attempt to flirt with danger. (But I could sell it, or melt it for rings, or stick it in a drawer instead of going down the drain to the groundwater.)

I capture fixer (Hypam) from my Phototherm and replenish according to Ilford's posted rates. But as an added benefit for use with fixer depleting film I want to run an electrolysis recovery on the holding tank (a 2L glass jar - not much of a tank, huh).

Fabricating a constant current source is pretty simple with a couple of op amps. I was figuring 5 ma as a starting place for the current, and allow the terminal voltage to float up to 24VDC as the conductivity of the solution goes down. I can get up to about 60VDC with stuff from my junk box if 24VDC is too low. And I suppose you could just straight rectify the 120VAC into a VDC bus if I really need higher potential, but finding op amps that won't fry at 160 volts may be harder. I'd probably have to buy something. :sad:

My plan for circulating the fluid was to put a stir bar in the jar and put the whole thing on a cheap stirrer plate from fleaBay.

My plan for the electrodes was to use silver jewelry wire for collection, and I haven't figured out what yet for the anode. Maybe a stainless rod?

So, although I'm not the one who posted, how's my scheming? OK? Out to lunch?
 

nhemann

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Chris,
So I have a bit of a philosophical question for you, and granted it belies my own attitudes on the matter just as much as a curiosity about yours. Simply, why? Your own safety I assume at this point is assured as you have access to a fume hood but you are still planning on producing and venting a very toxic gas up into the atmosphere and then letting the rest of "us" breathe it. I realize that the crap is present in engine exhaust and industrial smoke stacks and the like and that you are not Dr. Evil or anything (again, I assume, lol) but why add to it? why not just send it through a normal reprocessing stream and purchase your silver nitrate via a process that enables some environmental control?
neil
 
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35mmKevin

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I have an interesting story about this. A successful business man was asked about some things that have made him succesful. He fulled a 1 OZ silver bar from his top draw,held it up and said " this reminds me everyday to keep alert" He went on to relate a story about when no-one knew about reclaiming silver from the old developing and photgraphic industry. One company came in one day and quoted WAY below everyone else in getting rid of the waste. He thought,this is too good to be true. So he investigated and heard rumours that the guy who was running the company had discovered a way to reclaim the silver. So having heard this he went to a professor at a University and asked if this was possible. It was ! But no-one had really investigated it properly. He did and found it could be done and THEN went all over the US getting waste that could regain the silver and thats how he made his 1st Million. True story !
 

richard ide

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The silver recovery unit I had, used 2 carbon anodes about 2" x 10" x 1/2". The cathode was a stainless steel cylinder about 7" diameter x 7" height which was rotated slowly in a 2 gallon tank with a motor. The silver I recovered was accepted at 85% purity by the recycling company. When tabular grain film was introduced; my recovery dropped by about 80% due to the smaller amount of silver in the film.
 

nhemann

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Just as a point of reference - NOx is a heavily regulated industrial pollutant and has a whole chapter devoted to it in the federal regulations http://www.epa.gov/ttn/naaqs/standards/nox/fr/20100209.pdf and I would be willing to bet that California would have a thing or two to say about the purposeful production of it in a lab in anything but de minimis quantities. You might want to check with your lab rules. Maybe you have hyper fancy fume hoods but given its toxicity and contributions to low-level ozone, smog and asthma related symptoms - I again ask, why bother.
 
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kq6up

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It is for the sake of the scientist in me. I can afford to buy the stuff, but I enjoy making it. Also, if hydrogen peroxide is added to the nitric acid, it won't fume when dissolving the Silver. If decide not to use the peroxide I can always just cork it and run a hose to a gas trap. N2O4 is water soluble too. It can be dissolved in water to for nitrous acid and neutralized with baking soda rendering it harmless.

Moreover, this will be done very small scale. Not even close to an industrial level.

Chris
 

Mr Bill

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Fabricating a constant current source is pretty simple with a couple of op amps. I was figuring 5 ma as a starting place for the current, and allow the terminal voltage to float up to 24VDC as the conductivity of the solution goes down. I can get up to about 60VDC with stuff from my junk box if 24VDC is too low. And I suppose you could just straight rectify the 120VAC into a VDC bus if I really need higher potential, but finding op amps that won't fry at 160 volts may be harder. I'd probably have to buy something. :sad:

My plan for circulating the fluid was to put a stir bar in the jar and put the whole thing on a cheap stirrer plate from fleaBay.

My plan for the electrodes was to use silver jewelry wire for collection, and I haven't figured out what yet for the anode. Maybe a stainless rod?

So, although I'm not the one who posted, how's my scheming? OK? Out to lunch?

Michael, you shouldn't ever have to go over several volts, or you'll probably be getting the black silver sulfide, too.

The mag stirrer would probably work great - the main thing circulation does is allow you to run higher amperage without sulfiding. This is crucial in a production situation, where you have to be able to keep up with what your processors produce. A low volume hobbyist could probably just let it run, without circulation, but at a very low amperage (and recovery) rate.

But a piece of wire for a cathode.... well, 5 ma might be in the ballpark for this, but you'd probably need a couple of weeks to desilver what's in your 2 liter batch. And during that time, the constant agitation in the fixer might be a problem with oxidation. I think you really want a much larger cathode, so you can run more current.

As Richard mentioned, commercial units commonly use stainless steel cathodes, along with some sort of carbon anode.

BTW, I think the reuse of fixer is a bit questionable, unless you know both the chemical makeup and something about your film. If you remove the silver, you could, in principle, replace lost sulfite ion (it's converted to sulfate at the anode) and adjust the pH back to spec, but you won't be able to remove any iodide which might be left behind by the film (this really drops an anchor on fixing speed).
 
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kq6up

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Yea, I had planned on tossing the fixer once the silver was gone. Fixer is relatively cheap, and since I will be trying to use it longer to get it a little more "pregnant" with silver. I won't be using it one shot anymore for sure.

I can work out the mole calculations if I know the current and the length of time the current is flowing through the fixer. I think I read fixer has the carrying capacity of about 7g per L of fixer. I could probably check the specific gravity or use a hypo check.

Regards,
Chris Maness
 

nhemann

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Hi Chris - I'm glad you mentioned gas trap and some alternatives to just fuming it off. My love of photography has more than once conflicted with my uneasyness regarding the chemicals and their potential effects once I am done with them. I'm not sure if it exists but a book that details the decompostion reactions/products of various darkroom chemicals and disposal options for new generations of film buffs might be an interesting one. It would be nice to know exactly what ends up in the ground water and how long it stays there, is it still dangerous, etc.

Regarding the regs, I wasn't implying that you were headed towards large scale process but rather just to be aware the regs probably exist regarding NO2 production, especially in CA. As an example, when working with refrigerants ANY intentional release outside of what is left in fittings as connections are made/unmade (de minimis releases) are considered illegal. I wouldn't want your experiemental sprit to run afoul of big brother. lol
Neil
 
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kq6up

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@nhemann I believe that the Silver in the fixer is the only environmental issue that I am aware of. Also, in regards to discharging CFC's. This was a common practice with all HVAC technicians, so even though individual emissions were small, the total emissions from thousands of techs releasing this all over the world was huge. However, in my case this is just one emitter. I doubt that photogs the world across are dissolving silver into nitric acid thus producing an environmental hazard.

Regards,
Chris Maness
 

removed account4

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there are plenty of people using other materials besides fixer
and they don't think much of how they get rid of their waste.
people involved with photography have been dumping / draining &C
their toxic photography waste for more than 150 years
( cyanide, mercury, uranium, silver, selenium &C ) ...
 
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kq6up

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This is true. I am going to write up my plans and post a link to them.

Chris
 
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kq6up

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Well for the final proof of concept, I put my white precipitate in the sun today, and it turned dark grey.

Chris
 

Worker 11811

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Get a crucible and a gas burner. See what happens when you try to melt it down. If you get silver, you've got it made.
Purity is the only question but that can be answered with qualitative testing, probably before melting. I would have to study up on the chemistry involved to know for sure.
 
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kq6up

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The only metal impurities that should be present would be the ones present in the film in the first place, so I would imagine it would be fine for wet plate work. But as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I plan on lowering the current with my next batch so that I can try to get metallic silver instead of silver sulfide.

If any one wants to mail me their dehydrated fixer crystals I would be more than happy to pay for postage. I would like more to play with. I currently have about a half a gallon only.

Thanks,
Chris Maness
 
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kq6up

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I thought I would post a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: I (Chris Maness) am not to be held liable in any way shape or form If you (family members or pets included) out of your lack of safety and/or knowledge of the chemicals used are injured or killed. You have been warned.

Regards,
Chris Maness
 

greybeard

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jnanian: the reason there are a lot of "herp/derp you will die posts"
is because often times people who have no idea what they are doing
make their own silver nitrate or use cyanide &C thinking
everything is safe and dandy ...

if the OP didn't have a fume hood
he would probably be dead by now ...


John, I must respectfully disagree. I think that the reason for all of the "...you will die" posts is that few, if any, of the readers have any real practical experience. The ratio of posts describing hypothetical consequences to posts describing actual first-hand knowledge is therefore very large. (It is also human nature to remember the dramatic rather than the mundane, so people remember that "cyanide will kill you" after they have forgotten--if they ever knew--what a dangerous dose is and what it would take to experience that dose).

I encounter this routinely.

Challenge: "You are going to use carbon dioxide? Don't you know that it will suffocate you?"
Response: "I'm going to have one cubic foot in a cylinder, in a room with a volume of about 4,000 cubic feet. There's probably already more carbon dioxide in the air in the room than I could add if I emptied the cylinder all at once---even without the air conditioning ventilation."
Reply:" So? And your point is...?"

kq6up: When I gather enough of the dry black sludge. I am going to fire it in an iron (reducing) crucible with an Air-Acetylene torch. That should yield pure metallic Silver.

I think that you would be better served by a graphite crucible; molten silver may wet the iron, and if it does you will lose some as well as have a tough time getting the rest out. From a thermodynamic standpoint, there is no need for a reducing environment; silver oxide becomes unstable with respect to oxygen and silver at temperatures well below its melting point. On the other hand, silver sulfide will melt without decomposing (hence the potassium nitrate addition) and metallic silver will dissolve a considerable quantity of oxygen while molten, much of which comes out of solution as it freezes (a phenomenon known to us alchemists as "spitting silver"). So an oxidizing flux (potassium nitrate, possibly with some borax to help the silver globules coalesce) which excludes atmospheric oxygen might be just the ticket.

Regarding current sources: if you are not in a hurry, just put a high-voltage supply in series with a large balllast resistor (say, 60 VDC in series with 100,000 ohms, for 0.6 milliamps). The current will be nearly constant unless the effective cell resistance rises to a value that is a decent fraction of the ballast resistor value. Even a cheap low-range voltmeter will let you follow the process by watching the cell voltage.

To get a dense silver deposit rather than flakes or dendrites, keep the current density low and try adding an inert thickener (gelatin or dextrin) to the solution.

If you have access to a chemistry lab that is equipped for qualitative analysis, I'd be interested in knowing what concentration of silver would be left in solution by a small excess of ammonium polysulfide or sodium sulfide. At first glance, this would seem to be a reasonably simple and environmentally friendly way of retrieving the silver.

And for the "herp/derp you will die crowd" Yes, hydrogen sulfide toxicity is comparable to that of hydrogen cyanide, but there is a reason why people have survived long enough to report that hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs and cyanide smells like bitter almonds....
 
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kq6up

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This must be a very low efficiency reaction. If every electron was to reduce one silver atom, it would take 60 seconds to reduce one mole of Silver to metallic Silver with .6mA of current. That is the theory, but I am sure there are some side reactions that kill the efficiency of the cell.

@Greybeard how long would it take to reduce a gallon of very "pregnant" fixer at .6mA.

Thanks,
Chris Maness
 

greybeard

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Well, Faraday's Constant is about 96,485 coulombs per mole. Two posters have mentioned the silver content of used fixer; their values of 7 grams per liter and 1/4 Troy ounce per liter are comparable, so let's assume a full ounce (31.1 grams) per four liters. This is 31.1/108 = 0.29 moles, so we would expect at perfect efficiency to use 96,485 x 0.29 ~ 27,800 coulombs, which is to say 27.800 ampere-seconds. A current of 0.6 mA would therefore require about 46,3000,000 seconds, or some 12,800 hours.........I think.

This is why commercial units have many square inches of electrodes--to have low current density and a high reduction rate, you need large electrodes for the rather respectable current involved.

A milliampere or less is useful if you want to explore the electrochemistry at small scale; scaling the above estimate from four liters down to 40 milliliters would involve about 12 hours of electrolysis time theoretically, or rather more when you take into account cell inefficiency. Mind you, this is not a lot silver, only about 30 milligrams, but it would allow you to play with current density, bath additives, and other parameters.
 
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kq6up

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Your calculations are correct. I was not watching my units. That's what I get for using a calculator and not writing anything down. I hope I don't get accused of being a terrible teacher again :surprised:)

I will playing with this again this weekend. My 8x10" back just came in the mail so I have been playing with that.

Thanks for your help @greybeard your practical experience is a life savior for a theory guy like me.

Chris Maness
 

greybeard

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Chris,

You're welcome.

A couple of other factoids:

1) there is a two-component circuit for making a constant-current source (a three-terminal regulator and one resistor) that you might want to use if you plan to process gallon quantities of silver; the payback in precious metal would be at the end of the first gallon. The theoretically correct solution involves a potentiostat and a reference electrode, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that for less than about $100.

2) sometime in the last year or so there was a posting about the U.S. Army's report on the WWII Japanese photographic industry which described a process for purifying silver nitrate. A portion of the salt was converted to silver oxide by means of ammonia, and the oxide was then used to oxidize the transition and heavy metal contaminants so they could be removed as a precipitate. Granted, the Japanese didn't win the war, but the simplicity of this procedure wasn't the reason :smile:


I was not watching my units. That's what I get for using a calculator and not writing anything down.
Where I come from, this is called a "teachable moment" :smile:
 

michaelbsc

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The theoretically correct solution involves a potentiostat and a reference electrode, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do that for less than about $100.

I assume you're implying that the reference electrode is a type of feedback loop to control the current.

What is this reference electrode measuring? Conductance of the fluid?

Would one increase the current at lower conductance, assuming that more of the silver has precipitated out onto the cathode?

MB
 

greybeard

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Michael,

As you read the following, please bear in mind that I am a physicist and not an electrochemist, so the fact that I can't explain it in simple terms doesn't mean that I don't understand it :smile:

A "reference electrode" in this context is a device which establishes an absolute potential reference. The "ultimate" is hydrogen ion in equilibrium with hydrogen gas, which can be achieved by bubbling hydrogen over a platinum electrode. (The platinum catalyzes the breakdown of hydrogen gas molecules to atoms). There are various forms of more practical electrodes, and the one of interest here allows silver ions to come into equilibrium with silver metal: there will be a particular potential developed at any given temperature if the silver ion concentration is fixed (say, by the presence of solid silver chloride, which will dissolve and dissociate to a thermodynamically determined extent.

The way that this comes into play is by means of a "potentiostat", which is essentially a variable-voltage supply that regulates its output with respect to the reference electrode. Since the reference electrode potential is fixed, the potentiostat can regulate the "working electrode" (in this case the cathode where silver is being deposited) to any desired potential, compensating for things like lead resistance, current, stirring, and voltage drop across the electrolyte. In this way, the chemistry of the cathode reaction can be controlled to deposit metallic silver, but not silver sulfide, even when the silver concentration has become very low.

There are a couple of decent illustrations of reference electrodes on Wikipedia, except that the means of connecting them to the working electrolyte isn't very clear. This is sometimes done with a capillary opening at the bottom of the electrode, but more often with a porous glass plug or a thin membrane which will allow ions to migrate through while preventing gross mixing of the electrode contents with the working electrolyte. Since the potentiostat has an arbitrarily high input resistance, essentially no current flows and there doesn't have to be a low-resistance connection between the reference electrode and the solution.
 

michaelbsc

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Michael,

As you read the following, please bear in mind that I am a physicist and not an electrochemist, so the fact that I can't explain it in simple terms doesn't mean that I don't understand it :smile:

And I am neither. I am an industrial control systems engineer. But in this case, I'm just another hobbyist learning something new.


A "reference electrode" in this context is a device which establishes an absolute potential reference.... There are various forms of more practical electrodes, and the one of interest here allows silver ions to come into equilibrium with silver metal: there will be a particular potential developed at any given temperature if the silver ion concentration is fixed (say, by the presence of solid silver chloride, which will dissolve and dissociate to a thermodynamically determined extent.

The way that this comes into play is by means of a "potentiostat", which is essentially a variable-voltage supply that regulates its output with respect to the reference electrode. Since the reference electrode potential is fixed, the potentiostat can regulate the "working electrode" (in this case the cathode where silver is being deposited) to any desired potential, compensating for things like lead resistance, current, stirring, and voltage drop across the electrolyte. In this way, the chemistry of the cathode reaction can be controlled to deposit metallic silver, but not silver sulfide, even when the silver concentration has become very low.

There are a couple of decent illustrations of reference electrodes on Wikipedia, except that the means of connecting them to the working electrolyte isn't very clear. This is sometimes done with a capillary opening at the bottom of the electrode, but more often with a porous glass plug or a thin membrane which will allow ions to migrate through while preventing gross mixing of the electrode contents with the working electrolyte. Since the potentiostat has an arbitrarily high input resistance, essentially no current flows and there doesn't have to be a low-resistance connection between the reference electrode and the solution.



OK, here's what I've read, and I'll regurgitate what I "think" I have learned. You feel free to correct me, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_electrode

http://www.gamry.com/App_Notes/ReferenceElectrodes/ReferenceElectrodes.htm

http://www.gamry.com/App_Notes/Potentiostat_Primer.htm

http://www.consultrsr.com/resources/ref/agcl.htm

The basic idea is that the reference electrode provides a method to maintain a constant galvanic potential between the electrolyte solution and the cathode (working electrode) where the plating action is occurring. This allows us to manipulate the overall characteristics of the rest of the circuit to achieve maximum metallic silver plating without falling in to the trap of plating silver sulfide.

So, what I gather is that the characteristics of the reaction which occurs at the cathode is a result of the galvanic potential that we're hypothetically controlling. Too much, and we'll get sulfide; too little and we'll be dragging our feet unnecessarily. Furthermore, my earlier suggestion of providing a constant current source will not adequately accommodate the requirement. Using a constant current source the galvanic potential at the electrolyte/cathode junction will vary as the conductance characteristics of the remainder of the circuit change over time from the silver removal.

Specifically we want a constant galvanic potential at the cathode/electrolyte boundary, not a constant current through the cell.

Close? Or no banana?

Michael
 
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