Rec's for a Norma backpack

Ohio

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Longtime lurker, first-time poster.

May I get some recommendations for a backpack that can hold my Norma, 3 lenses on boards, 6 filmholders, head and sticks, and the usual bits and pieces. I've searched the site for recommendations for cases and packs for 4x5 cameras and haven't found much. Maybe I missed something, though.

I know this isn't a lightweight field camera, but it's what I have and like, and I'm not buying another 4x5 any time soon.

I'm looking for a pack I can take out of the truck, put on without needing to down more ibuprofen than is good for a person, and hike an easy-to-intermediate trail. It gets wet here---there's been so much rain this past few weeks I'm gathering pallets with which to build an ark---so a cover and/or waterproof would be good.

I'm not averse to used but I just don't know what to look for.

Thank you for any recommendations.




P.S. My Norma is named (surprise!) "Norma Desmond." But I have a feeling all Sinar Normas are named that.
 

Bob S

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Why not just go to a well stocked store like Glasers and look at them and pick the one that works best? Maybe find one with a pocket for a sandwich and a holder for your water bottle!
 

reddesert

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There has been discussion of backpacks on the largeformatphotography.info forum, so you might try searching there.

Some people prefer backpacks that have more of a backpacking heritage than a photo-equipment heritage. Many photo backpacks seem to be designed to carry a lot of pieces of 35mm/digital gear in a maximally packed heavy cube that may not be optimal for a long hike. The backpacking packs are often designed to carry a load more comfortably, but you have to figure out how to divide and pad the space. Additionally, most backpacking packs now are top loaders, but a front panel loader makes it easier to get gear in and out, especially a big thing like a 4x5 monorail. A panel-loading pack that gets mentioned is the older version Kelty Redwing (newer versions aren't front panel loading I think).

Backpack fit can be very individual so going to a store - I'd also suggest an outdoor store like REI - with some of your intended load to do a test run, may help.
 

MattKing

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Bob S said:
Why not just go to a well stocked store like Glasers and look at them and pick the one that works best? Maybe find one with a pocket for a sandwich and a holder for your water bottle!
Click to expand...
Kenmore Cameras is another good choice for bag selection.
 

CreationBear

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I'm just shaking down my 5x7 Norma kit myself, but one thing that has helped immensely is this mod I found on LFPF:
https://www.largeformatphotography....?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera
that allows you to keep the camera on a 6-inch rail. If you leave the rail bushing on between the focusing blocks, you've basically got a nice QR system: just screw-in an extension rail, extend the bellows so that it has room to clear the rail clamp, then drop the camera in. I'm pretty sure that's about as compact you're going to get a Norma--I carry mine in a 18L Hefty brand storage bin when it's in the pack, both to protect the camera bellows and to keep the sharp edges of the focus blocks from rubbing a hole in the packbag.

If you like the "camera insert" idea, it's basically just a matter of finding a pack with a packbag that's wide/deep enough--I've found that I need about 3500 cu in/50-60 L dedicated to my 5x7 kit, so a "serious" dayhike for me requires me to use an "expedition-sized" backpack.
 
OP
OP

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Thank you very much, CreationBear. I searched largeformatphotography but didn't find this very useful thread. I was thinking about doing something similar. I had just bored out a Sinar lensboard, came inside and was running some Photoshop scripts when I posted the initial ask, and was wondering if I could fabricate a shorter rail that I could add extenders to. And look at that...

I also like your idea of using the Hefty bin for the camera and putting that in the pack. Do you use any cushioning inside the bin? I'm wondering if I could mold some spray can foam. Basically, make a pattern that matches the shape of the Norma on its new rail, wrap it in plastic or other fabric-y stuff, put it in the bin and foam it into place. Take out the pattern and the foam thing will hold the camera assembly so nothing shifts around. Might not be necessary though.

Any thoughts on the pack itself? reddesert (thanks, btw) suggested a Kelty Redwing. I don't know the brand. I'm pretty familiar with the camera bag vendors, at least, the usual suspects, but I'm thinking reddesert may be right that perhaps REI may have what will work for me. I can just see myself with some compulsive mountain-climber REI sales person...

REI sales person: Wow, that's quite an expedition pack there. So, are you going to Everest? Maybe K2? Or are you hiking the length of the Appalachian trail?
Me: Uh, well, kinda. See, there are these trails near my house I was thinking I'd amble for an hour or so to take some pictures.
REI sales person: To walk around the woods you need a backpack large enough to carry a family of raccoons?
Me: Well, kinda. I want to carry a 4x5 camera.
REI sales person: Neat. Is it a Hasselblad?
Me: (sigh) No.
REI sales person: How many megapixels is it?
Me: (sigh) It's a film camera.
REI sales person: Huh. I didn't know people still did that.
​
(The above is a joke. I don't really care what REI people think of my purchasing decisions, though typing that makes me think I sound like I do.)

Now I'm wondering if I couldn't rig one of those baby-carrier things to hang Norma Desmond on the unmodified rail from the top of the frame by using heavy bungees and some rings. That way the camera kind of floats. Everything else goes in bags inside where the baby's butt usually goes or strapped to the side (like the sticks). I'd have to make a cover with a water-resistant fabric and I can't sew for crap. But I can hot glue. Well, that's something to think about anyway.

In the meantime, thanks for the help. Appreciate it.
 

CreationBear

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Well, it's getting the family of raccoons into your pack that is always the challenge.

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the baby carrier--IIRC there's a forum member who carries his fully set-up 4x5 Norma in a waste bin (bellows perpendicular to bag, rail parallel to your shoulders, supporting the camera)--though to do so would require a pretty burly toploader, ideally with a floating top-lid.

Otherwise, I do use a bit of Reflectix coupled with a darkcloth as ad hoc padding, but nothing purpose-build. (FWIW, there's a school of thought that outgassing from foam, etc. can play hob with optics etc., so you might get a few opinions here before going too far down that path.) As for packs, there will be a huge range out there that will "work," especially if you're the proverbial "40 Regular" and know that you'll not be venturing too far down the trail, but if you think you'll get more ambitious either with your hiking or format, the "buy once, cry once" philosophy might make more sense.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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That's a great thread, and something to pay attention to as you read the different responses is that there are basically three ways of packing a rail camera, so that could present different options with different backpacks that you can test out.

The short rail method is the sturdiest, making the camera into a solid block and you just add extension rails after putting the camera on the tripod.

Another option is tilt the front standard all the way back with the lens, raise the rear standard with the bellows and tilt it all the way forward (or you could do it the other way around, if it's easier on your camera, or on some cameras you can flip the front standard down and leave the bellows attached on both standards), so it's like having a folding field camera on a rail.

The third option that works well with a Sinar in a briefcase-style case is to unclip the bellows from one side and swing both standards parallel to the rail, side by side.

There was an early Sinar print ad or maybe an instruction manual or brochure that had a picture of a robust young Swiss gentleman hiking in the Alps with a hard-sided Sinar trunk case that apparently had lugs for backpack straps. I tried to find it on the net, but Google failed me.
 

DREW WILEY

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I use true external frame camping packs like classic old USA Kelty Tiogas (not the later import kind). A Rubbermaid kitchen wastebasket drops right into the top. A full 4X5 Norma can drop right in in there fully assembled, even with an 18" or longer rail attached. A big Ries wooden tripod can be bunji strapped to the back, upright, or one my CF tripods tucked right under the top flap, crosswise. There is ample extra room and side pouches for filmholders, lenses, day gear, etc. I've have even backpacks well over 10,000 miles in the mountains, often in steep off-trail terrain with that kind of arrangement, packing everyhthing - Sinar gear, lenses and film etc, food, tent, clothing, certain mountaineering gear. The drop-in bucket can simply be substituted for another one carrying my 8x10 folder instead, or a full P67 SLR outfit, or whatever. Very convenient. My last such pack was acquired brand new (in someone's closet for 40 never used) at a sidewalk sale. I traded it for a half-empty quart of marine varnish!
 

reddesert

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REI shop people have always been professional and courteous in my experience, most of them aren't hardcore mountaineers, and walking in there with a box of camera gear to test-fit into a backpack would hardly be the strangest thing to happen in an REI. But if one is determined to have an awkward experience one can probably make it so. For a heavy backpack fit is critical, and that's a place where outdoor gear (and outdoor gear shop assistants) are ahead of the photo gear.

If you want a foam liner, you can get some foam like the dense gray stuff that is used to pack computer boxes and cut it to size. I don't worry too much about outgassing from that, especially if it's just going to be in the pack for a few hours at a time. I would trust spray-in foam much less. TBH, most photo gear is pretty sturdy and wrapping it in a soft wrap or padding is often enough, with special allowances for fragile elements like the ground glass.

I would not like to carry a camera suspended floating inside a baby carrier or pack. One thing you realize when hiking is that weight that swings around is really annoying.
 
OP
OP

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David A. Goldfarb, I lol'ed at this. I blame the word "robust." And I'm considering your third option. I'm less inclined to do it for no other reason than it seems it may allow for more of a chance of what is technically called, "crushage." This not a rational fear as there's probably an equal chance of crushage with my baby carrier idea or pretty much any other option outside of a bank vault. But this is emotional---if I fall down the side of a mountain, the damage to my camera may not be the first thing I worry about, though it's quite likely that it would be second or third. So I will ponder option three some more because I think it has merit once I get over myself.

CreationBear, alas, I am not a "40 Regular." I believe I am what they call, a "I'll have to look in the back." And thanks for the note about outgassing---I'll check that out, though I've worked with similar products quite a bit. Now that I think about different ways to protect the camera I can see other options as to avoid the above-mentioned crushage. And I'll take time to find the right pack. I'm definitely of the buy-once-cry-once crowd, which has lead to capital expenditures my accountant has called reckless. <---That is a joke. I don't have an accountant. Well, I do, but that's for business because taxes, like raccoons, scare me.

Drew Wiley, I did read about your rig elsewhere, I think, though I don't recall pictures (that was a hint so subtle, I should join the diplomatic corps). That's rather clever, actually. Really clever. Like CreationBear's set-up, what I like about it is having the camera in its own protective shell that doesn't weigh too much, is off-the-shelf, and works with minimum fuss. The last time I used an external frame pack I remember it being heavy. Not horribly so and for my use, weight is less of an issue because...well, I had a pretty good joke at your expense but I wouldn't want to offend after you've been so helpful. I'll wait till I know you virtually better because anyone who will use a Rubbermaid trash bin in such a fashion is someone worth virtually knowing. And a half-empty quart of marine varnish? I believe that would be a half-full quart.

Thanks, all.
 

DREW WILEY

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I was out with the Norma & described pack this afternoon. I'm not set up to post pictures. This is my wife's work computer and I'm not supposed to do any imaging stuff with it. But I'd advise people just to forget all that heavy redundant foam nonsense, which is just extra bulk and weight, and use ordinary bubble packing, which is extremely light and often left over from shipments anyway, so basically free. I do own a couple of nice shoulder bags for smaller equipment, but that's a different story. The nice thing about a big pack is that everything is in there. I don't need to worry about tucking away a rain parka or warm shirt, or snax or water, or filters, extra camera goodies, even lenses (many of my LF are used from everything from roll-film backs to 8x10. So, except for a bit of last-minute lens selection tweaking, perhaps the choice of a different camera format basket insert with its own size filmholders, everything is ready to go and suitable for all kinds of weather (and it certainly can change even on the same day around here, even in summer). Actual multi-day backpacking is obviously a more complex issue, and in that case I use an even bigger external frame pack and delete the wastebasket liners for sake of maximum stuff capacity.
 
OP
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Understood about bubble pack, etc., Drew Wiley.

I'm going to send up a bat signal to some pals who backpack and see if anyone has an external frame pack sitting in the garage or attic (they can keep the rodentia) that I can try. I'll also acquire or make a 6" rail because I love this idea. Once I have a chance to walk around the homestead to see what does and doesn't work, I can revise as needed.
 

Keith Pitman

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Here are three pictures of a Sinar hard case. The first is from inside the case and demonstrates the case being used as a backpack. The other two show the outside of the case with the D-shaped lugs to attach pack straps to on the top. There are two additional D-shaped lugs on the bottom of the case. I've never tried carry this on my back; it looks pretty uncomfortable. From the drawing, it looks like Sinar provided the straps and a pouch to attach to the outside.

 
OP
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I was on glennview a few weeks ago looking for lenses, cases, and maybe a couple of levels to replace some dried-up ones ($60 each from him) and I saw that illustration. I actually thought, "That would totally hurt."

Is that your case, though, Keith Pitman? If so, have you ever stood on it like in the picture? Looks like a lovely drawing of a lawsuit about to happen. Still, neato and thank you for showing it.
 

Bob S

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I had 3 of them for 45, 57 and 810 Expert kits back in the 60s but I never tried to back pack them and they did not come with straps or pouches. But I did stand on them.
 

Keith Pitman

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Yes, as Bob implied, they are very sturdy. No worries about standing on the case. Anyway, who are you going to sue about a 40+ year old product?
 

Bob S

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Keith Pitman said:
Yes, as Bob implied, they are very sturdy. No worries about standing on the case. Anyway, who are you going to sue about a 40+ year old product?
Click to expand...
Especially since Sinar has been sold twice and is now part of Leica and they would not have liability anyway!
 

DREW WILEY

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Keith ... weren't the pyramids of Egypt made that way? The only way one would take a step forward was by flogging them. That doesn't look like backpackable, but torture.
 
OP
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Guys...don't forget the safe word.

Oops, I mean "safelight" word, because photography.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Thanks for the photos that demonstrate how this arrangement actually worked. The picture I recall was less instructional and more advertising with the robust photographer and a few of his friends with a scene of the mountains in the background. I don’t recall whether they brought along their St. Bernard with a cask of brandy around its neck.
 

DREW WILEY

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I did pick up a nice padded shoulder case, mainly for MF gear, but which will also alternately accommodate either my 4X5 Ebony folder or my old Sinar F2 scaled down to the basics, but not my fully tricked out Norma. It's suitable for short carries, like a mile or two. I can't imagine a hard case hung around the neck or across the back, and no doubt some chiropractor hoping for extra business designed that thing.
 
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ExploringLargeFormat

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My Sinar Norma, because she's green and of just-right proportions, is named "Norma Green".
 
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