Recommendations of books on how to make C-41 chemistry?

[Nikanon]

Anyone have any recommendations on books that give directions or formulae for C-41 developer chemicals?

 

[Athiril]

There is a word document floating around full of colour formulae, there is a few C-41 recipes on here as well in the articles section I think.

 

[Ian Grant]

A 1980's BJP Annual has all the formulae for Colour & B&W, C41, RA-4, E6 etc

Ian

 

[Mike Wilde]

I home brew my c-41, and use the Dignan most often. I dug up a bunch of sources about 6 years ago as the newsgroups that once discussed this stuff were drying up, and collated them into a single file for comparison and collation. The best source was a guy, Ron Speirs, now suspect as being departed. Maxwell Sanford (MTS here) is also a good source. He has sent me files on his notes, but alas cannot locate them digiatlly at the moment.

These are not Flexicolor formulae, and there are deviations on the ingredients from the 'official' mix. Try them and then run controls against commenrcially produced c-41 and see if you like what home brew can do for you before comitting important projects to it.

 

[Athiril]

Here is one I've hosted on my google documents that someone emailed me a while back (includes C-41, E-6, RA-4, older processes and random stuffs) - http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhb94mck_31f8z5d5c7

Here is the accompanying processing time document that was also sent - http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhb94mck_32vc6d7h68

If anyone wants to be invited to a sharing of editing a google document to collate and compile colour procesing and formula information, let me know.

 

[macandal]

A 1980's BJP Annual has all the formulae for Colour & B&W, C41, RA-4, E6 etc

Ian

What is BJP and do you know the exact date of such journal?

Thanks.

 

[Wayne]

British Journal of Photography

 

[macandal]

British Journal of Photography

Thanks.

Anyone knows the name of the article or when it was published or by whom? Anything?

Thank you.

 

[Wayne]

Thanks.

Anyone knows the name of the article or when it was published or by whom? Anything?

Thank you.

You may have to go to an electronic database that archives BJP. Your local library or university may give you access to such a database.

 

[macandal]

You may have to go to an electronic database that archives BJP. Your local library or university may give you access to such a database.

Yes, Wayne, I know, but any clues as to the name of the article or the year (or actual date) or anything? Entering keywords like "colour," "C-41," "recipe" or any combination of those words will yield lots of (and sometimes "no") hits.

Thanks.

 

[Ian Grant]

There's not an article, the BJP Annuals have a Processing section with all the Formulae and instruction in, they cut that section sometime in the late 1990s.

Ian

 

[macandal]

There's not an article, the BJP Annuals have a Processing section with all the Formulae and instruction in, they cut that section sometime in the late 1990s.

Ian

Okay. So, is this the 1980 annual or one of the annuals from the 1980s?

Thanks.

 

[Ian Grant]

Any of the Annuals from about 1980 onwards, go for a late 80's one though because the 1980 one doesn't have E6 (1981 does).

Ian

 

[macandal]

Any of the Annuals from about 1980 onwards, go for a late 80's one though because the 1980 one doesn't have E6 (1981 does).

Ian

Thank you.

 

[Rudeofus]

A real C-41 developer uses both Bromide and Iodide as restrainers. The Iodide will affect the top most layer, whereas the Bromide will affect all three layers, so the combo gives you the option to fine tune the characteristic curves with respect to each other.

I would therefore recommend a close look at this Kodak patent, which lists an accurate C-41 formula, as well as (there was a url link here which no longer exists) based on this formula. As far as bleaches and BLIXes are concerned, I have run into a large number of formulas which don't work with current films, so watch out and test carefully before you commit important material to experimental bleaches/BLIXes.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The C41 formulas have never been published AFAIK. The results of using several "ersatz" formulas were shown in an article in Photo Techniques about 20 years ago. Not very impressive compared to the correct formula.

PE

 

[OzJohn]

Thank you.

I have the BJP annuals from the 1930s up to the final one from 1994 in a bookcase in front of me. The last one that contained the full formula section on was 1985 and it has brews for C41, C22 and Agfa CNS. I don't think the BJP ever published RA4 substitutes as mentioned elsewhere but they did do an earlier one for Ektacolor 74 paper. If you can't find what you're looking for send me a PM and I'll email you scans of the relevant pages. Sorry but I can't post them here. Cheers.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have the Ektacolor 74 formulas. They are exact.

The RA4 process has been published in patents.

PE

 

[darkroommike]

Thanks.

Anyone knows the name of the article or when it was published or by whom? Anything?

Thank you.

The BJP Annual has a formulary in the back with formulas for a number of color processes plus formulas for a number of other solutions. I have annuals from 1975 and 1984, both have a number of published formulas (and not always the same ones). The 1975 annual has recipes (pre E-6) for Agfachrome. E4, Fujicolor R100 (somewhat like E3), GAF/Ansco, Orwochrome, Peruchrome, and some color negative and color prints formulas as well. And the Crawley FX black and white formulas as well. Not surprising Geoff Crawley was the Editor at BJP during this time.

The 84 book has some great info on BW reversal, Agfachrome, E-6, E-4, C-41, C-22.

I have a couple of Dignan "books" and the info in them might also be satisfactory.

I've also found a few more "casual" color processing references with some way out substitutions but hesitate to post any links 'cause some of their recommendations are pretty much the color equivalent or the Caffenol crowd.

 

[sfaber17]

A real C-41 developer uses both Bromide and Iodide as restrainers. The Iodide will affect the top most layer, whereas the Bromide will affect all three layers, so the combo gives you the option to fine tune the characteristic curves with respect to each other.

I would therefore recommend a close look at this Kodak patent, which lists an accurate C-41 formula, as well as (there was a url link here which no longer exists) based on this formula.

Thanks for that patent reference. I haven't tried that but it seems a bit low in CD4 and carbonate. Maybe Kodak is trying to throw people off.
I have been testing the various formulas with both Fuji and Kodak test strips and trying to tune them to be within the control limits of each of those test strips. So far I have not succeeded and am not ready to give all the results but I'll summarize some of the findings. I tried stefan4u's C-27, Dignan, and C-42. Stefan4u's is the best. He made his own test strips but clearly got the contrast right. The HD-LD for both Fuji and Kodak are within the control limits. The only thing is the LD Blue density is too high (+15 Fuji, +11 Kodak) on both strip types, and the Dmin is a little too high on the blue (Fuji). This is probably minor and can be adjusted with yellow filtration on an enlarger. Dignan is an interesting starting point also, but suffers from low red contrast for Fuji and low blue contrast on Kodak, and Low green LD on Fuji. I managed to make a variant that passes all control limits for Kodak but is just outside control limits on LD for green and blue (-10 on each) on Fuji, but is ok on Dmin.
This was my test "N", so call it C41-N. The formula below is to make a liter and should give the specified pH with no adjustment.
Potassium Carbonate 38g
Sodium Bicarbonate 1.92g
Sodium Sulfite 4.7g
KBr 1.5g
Potassium Iodide 1.2mg
HAS 2.5g
CD-4 5.2g
pH 10.22 22.5degC

I have commercial CPAC C-41, now Trebela, but I don't think they make it any more. It has a very high pH over 10.4 but passes both control strips. I haven't reverse engineered it but I think our formulas are in a different neighborhood than the modern commercial ones like PE is saying.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Remember that this patent is in M/L and CD4 is the bis PPD salt of sulfuric acid!

PE

 

[sfaber17]

Remember that this patent is in M/L and CD4 is the bis PPD salt of sulfuric acid!
PE

Understood. I believe I did it right and came up with 4.4 g/l which is even lower than the other formulas. It seems we had to go up on CD-4 to make things work - above 5.0 even (Dignan) although I used the same bromide/iodide levels as the patent and used the Dignan carbonate/sulfite levels and a bit higher pH.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It does depend on the salt used and the waters of hydration.

The pH should not be changed unless one uses the formulas that are the subject of the Arcus patent. (Just a side note: Bob Arcus and I are both model train enthusiasts. After all, when Kodak takes over your hobby of photography, ya gotta get a new one!)

PE

 

[sfaber17]

Cool about Arcus. I guess the CPAC is one of the Arcus formulations given the pH of 10.48. Maybe there is something about the CD-4 we are using (Artcraft) that is different. I'll take it under advisement about the pH, but it seemed like a good way to control the contrast if you are keeping the time and temp constant.

 

[Photo Engineer]

CD4 comes in as many as 4 salts. One is 2 CD to 1 H2SO4, one is 1 CD to 1 H2SO4 and one is 1 CD to 1 pTosyl (p Toluene Sulfonic acid) or 2 CD to 1 pTosyl. The patent is vague about the ratio of CD to Acid.

Oh, there are HCl salts and others as well. EK made and worked with them all as did I.

PE