Recommendations for Wide Angle 4x5 camera

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

Hi,

I’m looking for recommendations for a field camera that will allow for reasonable movements while using a 65mm and 75mm Super Angulon lenses. I have a Linhof Master Technika, but it’s a pain to use with such short focal lengths. I also have a Toyo Monorail camera but I don’t like trying to use this in the field.

I’ve never used any of the high end wooden field cameras like a Wisner or Chamonix etc, but I’m willing to consider them.

I suspect there are cameras that are better suited to this type of lens, but I just have not gotten a chance to play with one. Any starting points anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Lars

Luckless · Nov 19, 2019

Are the Super Angulon wide angle lenses the awkwardly large ones, or am I thinking of a different model?

If they are the awkwardly large bits of glass, do you want a field camera that is large enough to allow you to keep them mounted when the camera is closed up, or are you happy to remove the lens for transit?

Also what specific pains do you have with your Master technika and those short focal length lenses?

mshchem · Nov 19, 2019

The original Calumet CC-4xx series.,I have one of these cameras works great right down to 65mm. Small light and inexpensive, based on the original Kodak master view.

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

Luckless said:
Are the Super Angulon wide angle lenses the awkwardly large ones, or am I thinking of a different model?

If they are the awkwardly large bits of glass, do you want a field camera that is large enough to allow you to keep them mounted when the camera is closed up, or are you happy to remove the lens for transit?

Also what specific pains do you have with your Master technika and those short focal length lenses?

The lenses are actually fairly small. (They are the f.8 variety, not f5.6) Anyway, smaller than the 150mm Symmar. I don’t need them to live in the camera although that might be nice. I’m used to a lot of set up with 5x7 and 8x10 so mounting the lens each time I set up isn’t a big deal.

My issue with the Technika is that while the 75mm can be focused to infinity on the focusing rail, the fact that the lens is pushed pretty far back into the body it makes adjusting movements pretty difficult. I believe the 65mm is too short to focus on the main focusing rail. It might work on a Master Technika 2000 or 3000, but not on mine.

At any rate a camera where the front standard didn’t have to be pushed back into the body to focus would be a lot easier to use.

And I forgot to mention I also need a grafloc back since I would probably be using 120 roll film especially for the 65mm (I’m not even sure it covers 4x5 - I know the f5.6 one does, but the f.8 may not)

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

mshchem said:
The original Calumet CC-4xx series.,I have one of these cameras works great right down to 65mm. Small light and inexpensive, based on the original Kodak master view.

Yeah... Actually I just gave the Calumet CC403 that I inherited from my father to a friend since my Toyo monorail fills that particular need (and I have bag bellows on the Toyo). It’s just the idea of dragging a monorail camera out into the middle of a river makes me shudder.

Dan Fromm · Nov 19, 2019

Lars, I know that you want movements. Practically speaking the 4x5 Crown Graphic offers only front rise so isn't at all what you want. However, it is fairly friendly to short lenses. Minimum extension 52.4 mm. 65 and 75 SAs' (surely you mean f/5.6ers, the 65/8 barely covers 4x5, allows no movements) flange-focal distances are roughly 70 and 82 mm respectively.

You mentioned shooting in the middle of a river. If you're shooting hand-held, how will you focus and compose with movements?

adelorenzo · Nov 19, 2019

How about a Walker Titan XL 4x5?

Vaughn · Nov 19, 2019

These look sweet:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45hs1

I wish they had a similar set-up for 5x7...I like the idea of a solid, lighter, non-folder. ShenHao comes close, but it is a horizontal model only. I have gotten spoiled by my old Eastman View #2, flip down the front rail and you are ready to go...more front movements would be nice, though.

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

Dan Fromm said:
Lars, I know that you want movements. Practically speaking the 4x5 Crown Graphic offers only front rise so isn't at all what you want. However, it is fairly friendly to short lenses. Minimum extension 52.4 mm. 65 and 75 SAs' (surely you mean f/5.6ers, the 65/8 barely covers 4x5, allows no movements) flange-focal distances are roughly 70 and 82 mm respectively.

You mentioned shooting in the middle of a river. If you're shooting hand-held, how will you focus and compose with movements?

The crown graphic is a good idea. I have one but haven’t tried mounting the lenses to it because of the limited movements, but if what I’m doing only needs rise, it might be a good option. Not sure if I’ll be able to use rise when the lens is retracted into the body, but I’ll look at it and see in what circumstances it might work.

On the issue of limited coverage, in those situations, I’m likely to be using roll film (6x12, 6x7) so the f.8 lenses will more or less work.

Actually the river I’m usually shooting in is the LA River which is only a few inches deep in a lot of areas. I often shoot on a tripod in the middle of the river.

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

adelorenzo said:
How about a Walker Titan XL 4x5?

The Walker looks like it might be a really good one for wide angle work. I’ll have to consider how much wide angle work I’m likely to do and if the price is worth it to me. Thanks for the link.

Lars Bunch · Nov 19, 2019

Vaughn said:
These look sweet:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45hs1

I wish they had a similar set-up for 5x7...I like the idea of a solid, lighter, non-folder. ShenHao comes close, but it is a horizontal model only. I have gotten spoiled by my old Eastman View #2, flip down the front rail and you are ready to go...more front movements would be nice, though.

This one looks pretty good too.

I agree about the Eastman View 2D. My frustration with it is the lack of front tilt.

Besk · Nov 19, 2019

The Calumet CC-402 was especially made for wide angle work. Kirk Gettings used one for years for architectural photography. Relatively small but I wouldn't call mine light.

mshchem said:
The original Calumet CC-4xx series.,I have one of these cameras works great right down to 65mm. Small light and inexpensive, based on the original Kodak master view.

mshchem · Nov 19, 2019

Lars Bunch said:
Yeah... Actually I just gave the Calumet CC403 that I inherited from my father to a friend since my Toyo monorail fills that particular need (and I have bag bellows on the Toyo). It’s just the idea of dragging a monorail camera out into the middle of a river makes me shudder.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same camera. Here's a link to KEH page for the CC-402. Short little guy, will focus a 65mm to infinity with a flat lens board . About 10 inches long.

If you want an easy to transport, Crown Graphic, 65mm f8 Super Angulon, drop bed on camera, lens is small enough to close the camera.

https://www.keh.com/shop/calumet-4x...h-7-3-16-bellows-view-camera-body-679663.html
Photo from KEH.COM

Dan Fromm · Nov 19, 2019

[QUOTE="Lars Bunch, post: 2228900, member: 87378"Not sure if I’ll be able to use rise when the lens is retracted into the body, but I’ll look at it and see in what circumstances it might work.[/QUOTE]

The wire frame finder limits front rise. The easy solution is to remove it. I did that with my Graphics. The hard irreversible solution is surgery to the front of the box's top.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 20, 2019

Lars Bunch said:
The crown graphic is a good idea.

As you have written that you own a Linhof Master Technika, which has the notorious flip-up top specifically deployed to help with wideangles front rise, would you please expand how it happens that stepping back to a cheap Crown Graphic sounds to you as a "good idea"?

Ian Grant · Nov 20, 2019

Dan Fromm said:
You mentioned shooting in the middle of a river. If you're shooting hand-held, how will you focus and compose with movements?

Actually when working hand held focussing and composing with movements is quite easy, it's something I do quite regularly with my Super Graphic, and occasionally Crown Graphic.
I focus and compose on the GG screen then shoot using the rear site and wire frame. As the wire frame moves with the standard it's relatively accurate.

A 65mm lens needs very little movement in terms of front tilt tc compared to say a 150mm so the limited movements of a Crown Graphic may be sufficient if the front standard is reversed. One issue with a 65mm is the front of the camera bed will be in the image unless the camera bed is dropped. In the case on my Wista I have to tilt the camera and use front and back rear tilt.

My MPP cameras(essentially British Linhofs) use a coned lens board (opposite to recessed for WA lenses, this is to allow the front standard to remain on the inner rails while the front of the camera is dropped.

Personally I use a 75mm lens as the widest for regular landscape work, in 30+ years I've only used my 65mm a handful of times, although when I have in tight spaces it's been worthwhile.

Really it's something the OP needs to try for himself,

Ian

Fritzthecat · Nov 20, 2019

Vaughn said:
These look sweet:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45hs1

I wish they had a similar set-up for 5x7...I like the idea of a solid, lighter, non-folder. ShenHao comes close, but it is a horizontal model only. I have gotten spoiled by my old Eastman View #2, flip down the front rail and you are ready to go...more front movements would be nice, though.

http://www.walkercameras.com/XL5x7.html

James Bleifus · Nov 20, 2019

Vaughn said:
These look sweet:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45hs1

I wish they had a similar set-up for 5x7...I like the idea of a solid, lighter, non-folder. ShenHao comes close, but it is a horizontal model only. I have gotten spoiled by my old Eastman View #2, flip down the front rail and you are ready to go...more front movements would be nice, though.

Austin Granger has a review of the 45HS-1 at

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135458-Chamonix-Hs-1-Review

And I know he’s still using it. I’ve recently bought a 45N-2 and it is my favorite view camera of all time, even besting my Horseman 45L. It requires more effort to set up than the HS-1, but I enjoy that sort of ritual. Many others don’t.

Cheers, James

Bob S · Nov 20, 2019

Lars Bunch said:
The lenses are actually fairly small. (They are the f.8 variety, not f5.6) Anyway, smaller than the 150mm Symmar. I don’t need them to live in the camera although that might be nice. I’m used to a lot of set up with 5x7 and 8x10 so mounting the lens each time I set up isn’t a big deal.

My issue with the Technika is that while the 75mm can be focused to infinity on the focusing rail, the fact that the lens is pushed pretty far back into the body it makes adjusting movements pretty difficult. I believe the 65mm is too short to focus on the main focusing rail. It might work on a Master Technika 2000 or 3000, but not on mine.

At any rate a camera where the front standard didn’t have to be pushed back into the body to focus would be a lot easier to use.

And I forgot to mention I also need a grafloc back since I would probably be using 120 roll film especially for the 65mm (I’m not even sure it covers 4x5 - I know the f5.6 one does, but the f.8 may not)

why is the 75mm difficult? Are you using the correct board?

markjwyatt · Nov 20, 2019

Came across this yesterday, not sure if it fits the bill...

https://www.catlabs.info/product/linhof-super-color-kardan-4x5-camera-with-120mm-lens-holders

Dan Fromm · Nov 20, 2019

Lars Bunch said:
My issue with the Technika is that while the 75mm can be focused to infinity on the focusing rail, the fact that the lens is pushed pretty far back into the body it makes adjusting movements pretty difficult. I believe the 65mm is too short to focus on the main focusing rail. It might work on a Master Technika 2000 or 3000, but not on mine.

And I forgot to mention I also need a grafloc back since I would probably be using 120 roll film especially for the 65mm (I’m not even sure it covers 4x5 - I know the f5.6 one does, but the f.8 may not)

Lars, pardon my poor reading comprehension. Linhof made focusing devices for short lenses on Technikas. One of Pacemaker Graphics' advantages over competitors is linked bed rails. Their focusing knobs move inner and outer bed rails, making focusing lenses that make infinity with the standard on the inner rails easy.

You don't need no steenkin' Graflok back to use roll film holders. You need an insertion type roll holder. Toyo roll holders are a little thick but might do for you. 6x7, 6x9, no 6x12. Sinar roll holders should suit you. I shoot 6x12 with a Panorama (fixed format 6x12). And then there's the despised Adapt-A-Roll 620, whose native format is 2.25" x 3.25". There's one sized to fit 4x5 cameras with spring backs. Major drawback is that the gate isn't centered on the camera's optical axis. Don't ask how I know or why I bought a 2x3 Super Rollex.

Nokton48 · Nov 20, 2019

For field work I prefer the Sinar Norma, but maybe you prefer wooden cameras.

First 5x7 Norma Test 75f8 SA CF E3 150F9 Aristo2 Perfection 3.5min by Nokton48, on Flickr

My one and only (so far!) test of my 5x7" Sinar Norma. Also testing the Schneider 75mm F8 Super Angulon, with the matching Schneider center filter marked "Filter for 75mm F8 SA".

5x7 HP5 D76 Omega E3 with Omegalite Head, Arista Ultra #2 RC paper Perfection D developer 3.5 minutes

The Apple Tree in my Backyard.

Ian Grant · Nov 20, 2019

Some years ago there was a custom modified MPP MicroTechnical on ebay, this had been made by MPP specially for an Architectural photographer, part of the top at the front had been cut away to allow rise with very short FL lenses.

Not long after that I bought a pair of Speed Graphics supposedly enough parts to build one good one, no parts were compatible as one was pre-Anniversary and the other a Pacemaker. The pre-Anniversary Speed Graphic had been modified from new as a WA 5x4 camera with part of the top cut away.

The range-finder is set for a 90mm lens.

Sometimes you need to think laterally, maybe make your own camera.

Ian

Vaughn · Nov 20, 2019

Fritzthecat said:
http://www.walkercameras.com/XL5x7.html

I am not much of a wide-angle user, and I would like back tilt and sufficient bellows for a 250mm lens for landscapes...picky, aren't I? I might be able to do with 210mm. But it sounds like the Chamonix H-1 might have a 5x7 back/bellows option. I still have a kid in college, but I'll think about it.

Lars Bunch · Nov 20, 2019

Marco Gilardetti said:
As you have written that you own a Linhof Master Technika, which has the notorious flip-up top specifically deployed to help with wideangles front rise, would you please expand how it happens that stepping back to a cheap Crown Graphic sounds to you as a "good idea"?

The problem in using wide angle lenses arises from bellows compression. As the bellows are squeezed closer together, it becomes more difficult to apply movements. With a 90mm lens on a flat lens board, I do not have the range of movement I might want despite being able to open the top.

With the 75mm lens which just barely covers 4x5, I would not need much freedom of movement, but the graflex bellows are not as thick when compressed and may allow the sort of movement I might want. Even if it turns out that the graflex will not meet my needs, it is a “good idea” to take a look at it to see if it might do the job. After all, the more expensive, more sophisticated camera isn’t always the best tool for the job.

One of the things I really appreciate about these forums is the range of ideas from everyone. Even if an idea doesn’t perfectly answer my question, it can give me a starting point to find the answer.

Thanks to all who have commented. I learn so much from this community.

Lars

foveon_m · Nov 20, 2019

why a bag bellows doesn´t help?

Recommendations for Wide Angle 4x5 camera

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