Recommendations for getting into medium format?

jerrybro · Aug 22, 2014

I started with a Rolleicord III, still have it and use it occasionally. Discreet, quiet, everyone smiles when they see it. The simple lens renders some nice images. Eventually I moved up to a Hasselblad. Took a while to get used to, but now I get it. Easy to use, while not as fast as a 35 slr for action photos, and it is hard to compete with the 4x5 for landscapes, it is good enough for 90% of what I do. Biggest problem is not buying too much in the accessory department. I started with a basic body, lens and back. Then added a 2nd back. Then a grip. Then metered prism. Found a Metz flash for cheap. All this stuff was silly expensive when new and is a bargain now on the used market. You put the money into the lenses, but everything else is surprisingly affordable. ELMs for under $200. Backs for less.

It is probably cheaper to get into a Blad today than one of the new modern Canon or Nikon pro level systems.

James-EG · Aug 24, 2014

polyglot said:
If you want an RZ67*, then buy an RZ67! You're a student, right? You're young, you can easily handle the weight and bulk. I suspect I'm twice your age and my RZ67 always comes with me for international travel, including a lap around Europe & Asia about three years ago and a wander around bits of Canada last year. Consider that if you're trying to take good photos, you need a tripod anyway. The tripod is bigger than any MF camera and possibly heavier too (unless you go carbon fibre, and that will cost as much as your camera+lens), so are you really saving much/any weight by buying a smaller camera?

A Hasselblad body may well be affordable but the good lenses are not. Go look on KEH or something and budget out a high quality 3-lens set (wide, normal, apo tele) for the two systems and you'll see what I mean. Blads are much smaller though.

If you want to try quality 6x6 on the cheap, I would recommend something like a C220 or C330. They're not as small/light as a Rolleiflex, but they are literally about 1/6 of the price, just as sharp, and you can interchange the lenses. If you don't like the parallax errors with TLR, you can sell it on again with no loss. I have a few shots from my C220 that I love, and that I probably would not have taken with the RZ, but my keeper rate from the C220 is lower because of parallax errors and the difficulty of seeing on the dim focus screen. And I have many photos from the RZ that could never be taken on a TLR.

TLRs are nice for shooting IR because the filter won't block your viewing lens. Not much in the way of any good IR films available in 120 though, so that's no longer a good argument. And a polariser is harder to use on a TLR unless you buy a Minolta and its $$$$ coupled polariser.

* I have a Pro, not Pro-II. Far cheaper, lacks the fine-focus control (who cares) and the half-stop speeds (not really a problem).

Thanks for your reply, I've been in Cornwall for just under a week and only just managed for find somewhere to connect to the internet! You mentioned that Hasselblad lenses are very expensive, I've found a couple for £149 from Ffordes, the chrome 'C' versions, are they any good? Although I think I'm going back to mainly wanting to get the Mamiya RZ67, I have a carbon fibre tripod which is very light for it's size, I'm just under 6'4" and it's a very good height for me to work at with a telephoto lens without even extending the centre column.

If I manage to get the Mamiya I might still want to try square format, so getting a TLR to try it out sounds like a very good idea. Also as other people have said a folding camera would still also be a good alternative to try out a different format with a smaller system.

I've also looked at Bronica, but I've yet to hear anything amazing about them, I've found loads of sites and reviews talking about how amazing the Mamiya is for portraiture and other photography, but the Bronica systems are normally just described and being very good. Although, I still think they're well worth having a look at due to their prices, and the 'Japanese Hasselblad' nickname sounds promising! I also love the right hand grip they provide so I'll be looking at them too. If there's anyone that uses a Bronica system I'd love to hear about your experiences with them.

time4d · Aug 24, 2014

Not sure if you are already acquainted with the differences between the 4 types of medium format cameras. Knowing the differences and what suits you may help you to narrow down your selection a little.

I started off with an old folder (Agfa Isolette) and moved on to a Mamiya C220 TLR next. I would say just skip all folders, save for the Fuji 645 folders. I believe you will be pleased with the Mamiya TLR. The optics, while not the sharpest, are decent and offer versatility in the form of interchangeable lenses. I've done landscapes, portraits and architecture with it and the results were very pleasing. Bronicas are good, reliable cameras for most purposes, but if you scrutinise them compared to the very best then it will fall short. Also, Bronicas are becoming increasingly unwanted and it may be difficult to sell it off because the prices are already rock bottom.

My advice is not to get caught up with the technical details too much. The variance in image quality among MF cameras is less than the variance between the skill of individual shooters, so don't let anyone tell you that you can only do something with an SLR and not with a rangefinder, or something like that. If you just pick up a decent MF camera for your budget (Mamiya C220/C330, Fuji 6x9, Mamiya RB/RZ67, Rolleicord) and devote time and intelligence to learning how to use it properly, you can create wonders.

Alan Gales · Aug 24, 2014

Normally, you decide what format you want before picking a camera. Since you are unsure on format, why not pick up a Yashica D TLR for dirt cheap? Shoot it for a month and you will learn if you like TLR's and/or the square format. If you wish to sell it later, you won't be out much if you don't get all your money back and you will have received an education.

polyglot · Aug 24, 2014

James-EG said:
Thanks for your reply, I've been in Cornwall for just under a week and only just managed for find somewhere to connect to the internet! You mentioned that Hasselblad lenses are very expensive, I've found a couple for £149 from Ffordes, the chrome 'C' versions, are they any good? Although I think I'm going back to mainly wanting to get the Mamiya RZ67, I have a carbon fibre tripod which is very light for it's size, I'm just under 6'4" and it's a very good height for me to work at with a telephoto lens without even extending the centre column.

I'm not a Hasselblad expert, but my understanding is that you want the black ones ("CF" maybe?) with T* coating. If it's a tele (longer than about 150mm), it wants to be apochromatic especially if you shoot colour. For example if you want a 250mm from KEH, it's $3600 for a Hasselblad 250/5.6 superachromat or $620 for the non-apo CF T* version. For RZ67, it's $550 for the 250/4.5 APO or $160 for the non-APO version. Having shot both (my RZ and a friend's superachromat) on fine film, you cannot tell the different between the two except that the RZ gives you more negative and half a stop more speed for ~20% of the price. The RZ is slightly heavier though.

James-EG said:
If I manage to get the Mamiya I might still want to try square format, so getting a TLR to try it out sounds like a very good idea. Also as other people have said a folding camera would still also be a good alternative to try out a different format with a smaller system.

Yeah, a TLR is good because it's cheap My beater C220+80/2.8 cost me $150, I've dropped it twice and my idiot dad stepped on it (bent the focus knob) but it still takes perfectly good pictures. If it takes a swim in the ocean, I'll be a lot less unhappy than I would if it were my RZ67 or god forbid, a rolleiflex. And if I decide that I'm sick of it, I can sell it for probably no loss. They're a good fun thing to play with.

James-EG said:
I've also looked at Bronica, but I've yet to hear anything amazing about them, I've found loads of sites and reviews talking about how amazing the Mamiya is for portraiture and other photography, but the Bronica systems are normally just described and being very good. Although, I still think they're well worth having a look at due to their prices, and the 'Japanese Hasselblad' nickname sounds promising! I also love the right hand grip they provide so I'll be looking at them too. If there's anyone that uses a Bronica system I'd love to hear about your experiences with them.

hoffy has a Bronica and seems to like it. I get the impression that there's not really anything wrong with them, but that their unpopularity is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. They seem to be hard to sell; there were a lot less made than Mamiya systems, so the market isn't as big and fluid. Harder to find exactly what you want, harder to shift stuff you changed your mind about.

Slixtiesix · Aug 25, 2014

There is no real need to go for the Superachromats when shooting Hasselblad. It is true that the 250SA is much better than the 250 Sonnar under higher magnifications, but the if you don´t need 250mm of focal length, buy a 180/4 CF for a fraction of the price of a Superachromat. Or just buy the 150/4. This is a sharp lens with wonderful bokeh and very even picture quality across the frame.
The Old 150mm C lenses will suffice, but mind that the shutters are quite old an may need a service sooner or later. Recently, 150mm CFs have become really cheap and even 150mm Cfi lenses are very affordable these days.

Jeff Kubach · Aug 25, 2014

Nuff said:
I think the Australian and USA standards of calling people are different. I think most American's would get very upset hearing how best friends call each other in Australia.

Except for me! You can call me anything, it wouldn't bother me!

Jeff

polyglot · Aug 25, 2014

You should all try meeting a scotsman sometime; now there's a culture that seems to cultivate quick and deeply biting repartee.

polyglot · Aug 25, 2014

Slixtiesix said:
There is no real need to go for the Superachromats when shooting Hasselblad. It is true that the 250SA is much better than the 250 Sonnar under higher magnifications, but the if you don´t need 250mm of focal length, buy a 180/4 CF for a fraction of the price of a Superachromat. Or just buy the 150/4. This is a sharp lens with wonderful bokeh and very even picture quality across the frame.
The Old 150mm C lenses will suffice, but mind that the shutters are quite old an may need a service sooner or later. Recently, 150mm CFs have become really cheap and even 150mm Cfi lenses are very affordable these days.

Well of course you don't need the APO, but my point was that if you are willing to give up the Swedish badge, you can have a lens that is as good as the superachromat for less than the price of the non-APO. Similar pricing ratios exist between the brands across the lens range, no matter what level of quality you want to buy into. Hasselblad gear is wonderful stuff, but you do have to be aware that you are paying also for the name and the cachet that goes with it. Not as bad as buying Leica, but the same principle.

There's a reason we don't have an "Is that a Mamiya?" thread...

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 25, 2014

polyglot said:
Wow, and I thought I was uptight.

Everyone is an idiot sometimes.

Sorry... I've just been thinking about family a lot lot lately. There aren't not many left now. Yeah, I'm a bit oversensitive sometimes. I asked the mods to delete that post.

Sorry for going OT.

James-EG · Aug 25, 2014

Alan Gales said:
Normally, you decide what format you want before picking a camera. Since you are unsure on format, why not pick up a Yashica D TLR for dirt cheap? Shoot it for a month and you will learn if you like TLR's and/or the square format. If you wish to sell it later, you won't be out much if you don't get all your money back and you will have received an education.

I wouldn't say I'm unsure on format, I would prefer 6x7 over anything else I'm just not too bothered about 6x6 if I need to go down that route instead, and I might end up getting a TLR anyway, by all accounts they fun to use, small, light and take great images, so I see nothing wrong with them! Having one would always be useful if I wanted a small and light medium format camera to carry around for a day. I'll be looking through all the TLR suggestions I've been given.

If the better and newer Hasselblad lenses are that expensive I'm pretty sure that would far too much for me. And while there is always something nice about owning a product from a renowned and well recognised company like Hasselblad I'm much more interested in the images I get. If the Mamiya can take great images (especially with 6x7 format) I'd love to get one. Looking on eBay the Hasselblad systems always seem overpriced, I imagine due the continued demand for those cameras, and like some people said the brand, almost reminds me of Apple!

I recently found a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II system for sale for £400, is that the kind of price you'd expect for a system in good condition? Also, which version lenses should I be trying to get if I got the Mamiya? I'd like a standard, wide angle and short telephoto eventually, I'm just trying to get an idea of the overall cost of a basic setup with a couple of lenses.

Thanks again!

polyglot · Aug 25, 2014

UK prices I don't know, but KEH are always a good indication of market price. They price a bit above what you would pay on the forums but it comes with a guarantee, not that the guarantee is much good if you're outside the USA as you must pay return shipping.

If you want a wide for the RZ, the 50 ULD and 65 M-LA are your best options, or the 37 if you like fisheye. The 110/2.8 is the smallest/lightest/fastest lens and is a slightly-long normal; you can also get a 90 if you like shorter-normal. For short tele, the 180/4.5 are cheap and pretty good. You can get a 140 M-LA macro which is incredibly sharp, or for longer tele's there's 250, 350 and 500mm but they're pretty big/heavy/expensive. Where there are floating and non-floating versions of a particular focal length (50, 65, 140), there is a big price difference and it's (IMHO) worth paying unless you always shoot near infinity. Note that you can get very high magnifications with the on-camera bellows and a short lens, but that does NOT mean the quality will be good; you want the macro if you intend to shoot with more than about 0.33x magnification.

If you have a favourite focal length on 35mm, just double it to get a good approximation of what you need on 6x7.

Alan Gales · Aug 25, 2014

James-EG said:
I wouldn't say I'm unsure on format, I would prefer 6x7 over anything else I'm just not too bothered about 6x6 if I need to go down that route instead, and I might end up getting a TLR anyway, by all accounts they fun to use, small, light and take great images, so I see nothing wrong with them! Having one would always be useful if I wanted a small and light medium format camera to carry around for a day. I'll be looking through all the TLR suggestions I've been given.

If the better and newer Hasselblad lenses are that expensive I'm pretty sure that would far too much for me. And while there is always something nice about owning a product from a renowned and well recognised company like Hasselblad I'm much more interested in the images I get. If the Mamiya can take great images (especially with 6x7 format) I'd love to get one. Looking on eBay the Hasselblad systems always seem overpriced, I imagine due the continued demand for those cameras, and like some people said the brand, almost reminds me of Apple!

I recently found a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II system for sale for £400, is that the kind of price you'd expect for a system in good condition? Also, which version lenses should I be trying to get if I got the Mamiya? I'd like a standard, wide angle and short telephoto eventually, I'm just trying to get an idea of the overall cost of a basic setup with a couple of lenses.

Thanks again!

I live in the U.S. so I am not familiar with the U.K. pricing. I have heard that there is a smaller supply there so prices should be a bit higher than here.

I completely agree with Polyglot's last post. I used to own a Mamiya RZ67 with 50mm ULD, 110mm, and 180mm lenses. I highly recommend the lenses I had. I also owned the Mamiya L grip which made the camera so much easier to handle. The RZ is a 7x7 camera in size so you can revolve the back. It's a bit of a beast so some don't like it. A 4x5 wooden field camera and a few lenses can be a lighter kit. Of course you would be shooting sheet film then.

I also owned a Hasselblad with the 80mm Planar. It's a lot easier to carry around. The computer designed (sharpest) Zeiss lenses like the 60mm, 100mm and 180mm are pretty pricey. Check KEH to see what I'm talking about price wise. Of course the older designed lenses like the 80 that I owned are plenty sharp.

Both the RZ and the Blad are capable of excellent image quality.

If you are on a budget and don't mind the size and weight of the RZ then I'd go with it. The Hasselblad is a lot smaller in size and weight but pricey. Of course you need to decide if you want rectangle or square images. If you are going to crop the Blad to rectangle you may be better off with a 645 system.

James-EG · Aug 25, 2014

Thanks for the help, for my Nikon FM2n I only have a 50mm at the moment but I am looking to buy 28mm and 105mm lenses, so in medium format those equivalents would probably be what I'd eventually try to get. So the 50mm, 110mm and 180mm/250mm might be best for me, I'll have a look at those prices! I don't think I'd mind the size and weight of the Mamiya, I have large hands so I might prefer a larger camera, and I would want to buy the L Grip which helps. While a Hasselblad system would be nice I'd rather try and get a good setup that can take great images in 6x7 format, I do feel like buying a Hasselblad is paying for the brand. I'll keep an eye out for a nice Mamiya system! Although, I've only seen a couple at good prices in the last few weeks, but good things come to those who wait I suppose! If I can't get one, I'll refer back to the suggestions given to me for other cameras.

Thanks again for everyone's help, I might have arrived at the same conclusion I started with but I've learned a lot which is very valuable!

Alan Gales · Aug 25, 2014

James, if you buy a Mamiya 50mm then I recommend that you buy the ULD version. Someone here on APUG recently said the 50 ULD's were going for around $400.00 USD lately. I paid for and later sold mine for $500.00 and felt it was well worth that.

Sirius Glass · Aug 25, 2014

My first recommendation would be a Hasselblad, however the OP has ruled that out due to cost. Next I would recommend a Rollei 6x6 slr or a Bronica 6x6 slr.

James-EG · Aug 25, 2014

Yeah, as some people have said the Hasselblad lenses can be very expensive also I'd rather have 6x7 format which is why I particularly drawn to the Mamiya RZ67. Although I would like to try a TLR one day, has anyone here had any experience with the Flexaret VII? It isn't too pricey (under £150), seems like a well built camera and the images I've seen taken with them look great!

Kyle M. · Aug 25, 2014

If you can't find an RZ67 for a good price why not look at the RB67? It's basically an all mechanical RZ, I personally prefer non electronic cameras. I picked mine up near mint for $300 about a year ago on ebay, and I've seen them as low as $225. I know I've really touted the RB system on this forum several times, but I am serious when I say I wouldn't trade it for any other camera in the world, and yes I've used a Hasselblad. I still prefer the Mamiya.

Sirius Glass · Aug 25, 2014

The Hasselblad cost for the body and lenses translates into waiting a few months longer between buying lenses than if one had bought another camera instead.

markbarendt · Aug 25, 2014

Kyle M. said:
If you can't find an RZ67 for a good price why not look at the RB67? It's basically an all mechanical RZ, I personally prefer non electronic cameras. I picked mine up near mint for $300 about a year ago on ebay, and I've seen them as low as $225. I know I've really touted the RB system on this forum several times, but I am serious when I say I wouldn't trade it for any other camera in the world, and yes I've used a Hasselblad. I still prefer the Mamiya.

i agree, RB's are great.

Alan Klein · Aug 25, 2014

Why do people like the RB over a Hasselblad?

markbarendt · Aug 25, 2014

Alan Klein said:
Why do people like the RB over a Hasselblad?

Why do people likes blondes over brunettes?

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 25, 2014

Alan Klein said:
Why do people like the RB over a Hasselblad?

Nothing at all wrong with Hasselblad... they're wonderful cameras. I prefer the 6x7cm format over the 6x6cm film format because to print 16x20in the 6x6cm film must be cropped to 6x4.5cm.

Alan Gales · Aug 25, 2014

Just to add to what has been written, the RB has a larger viewfinder, closer focussing, and a better dampened mirror for hand held shots.

I like the Hasselblad too but of course I like Blondes, Brunettes and Red Heads!

MattKing · Aug 25, 2014

Alan Klein said:
Why do people like the RB over a Hasselblad?

The rotating back.

The built in bellows.

The ergonomics are really different. So for most people, one of the two will just feel better.

In my case, the Hasselblad and I just don't work well, while the RB67 and I are just, well, comfortable.

If you are left-handed, you may feel the same way.

Recommendations for getting into medium format?

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