Recommendations for buying pyrogallol?

[jvoller]

I'm looking to make my first batch of 510 pyro and wonder where folks here get their pyrogallol. I know the Formulary carries it - are there any other sources anyone would recommend? Thanks.

 

[RobC]

I'm in UK and know that suppliers come and go. The formulary is a constant so I'd just get it from there unless you have a good reason to source it from elsewhere.

 

[CropDusterMan]

I know the Formulary carries it - are there any other sources anyone would recommend? Thanks.

Why not just buy it at the Formulary?

 

[Rick A]

I buy my chems from Artcraft.
http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/

 

[destroya]

formulary

 

[jeffreythree]

I recently purchased the ingredients for my first small 100 ml trial batch of 510 pyro from the Formulary. Their shipping was very high, and I will be happy to see who else carries the supplies as well.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

As a chemist I would not recommend buying it at all. Pyrogallol is the most toxic of all the common developing agents. It is readily absorbed thru the skin and causes damage to the liver, kidneys, nervous system and bone marrow. Chronic contact with pyrogallol has been suggested as the cause for Edward Weston's neurological symptoms leading to his death. Human LDLo (lowest known lethal dose): Oral: DOSE: 28 mg/kg. Read the following MSDS fact sheet CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY.

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/20010.htm

If you want to use a staining developer then those based on catechol are a safer, but still a dangerous choice. If a spill of the solid pyrogallol should occur in your home then professional decontamination might be required. If you absolutely must try the 510-Pyro developer then buy the premixed version from PF. Further use required safety measures such as nitrile gloves and a lab apron.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Gerald I take everything you say verbatim..I use pyrocat-mc almost exclusively. ..I use nitrile gloves all the time. I also make it for my use
I would bet the farm that Edward weston never used gloves...if you make it wear a mask and put on the gloves. ..so far after 15 years use no signs of neurological disorder. . I think people doing wet plate are way more susceptible to chemical interactions. ..Gerald please NO FIGHT HERE!!

 

[Alan9940]

I buy all my bulk chemicals from ArtCraft; great guy to deal with and superb customer service.

As for the toxicity, warnings, and danger signs of dealing with raw powders like pyrogallol, catechol, Amidol, etc, my work method when mixing is to wear a proper dust mask (not some cheap paper filter over your mouth), eye protection, rubber gloves, an apron, and I mix outdoors on calm days. There is probably some level of risk still involved, but...and I stress that this is FOR ME...it's worth it to have access to formulas I like to use. YMMV, of course.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I brought the point up about pyrogallol's toxicity because those familiar with mixing MQ and PQ developers might be unaware of this developing agent's dangers. I posted a link to an MSDS which I encourage everyone to read thoroughly so they are aware of the danger. Pyrogallol in addition to having an acute toxicity also appears to have a cumulative one. So the effects of poisoning may not appear for years. Having witnessed some spectacular lab accidents one should always remember that accidents DO happen even when one is being careful.

 

[Alan9940]

And, a darn good point it is! Personally, I think the dangers of dealing with toxic chemicals should be reiterated every time these questions/posts arise. My point is that quite a bit of the chemistry we deal with in the darkroom is, basically, unsafe. How long has Rodinal been around? Not exactly a safe developer... Those of us that use alternative processes face many of these dangers. One simply needs to decide for him/herself if s/he is willing to assume the risks involved.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

And, a darn good point it is! Personally, I think the dangers of dealing with toxic chemicals should be reiterated every time these questions/posts arise. My point is that quite a bit of the chemistry we deal with in the darkroom is, basically, unsafe. How long has Rodinal been around? Not exactly a safe developer... Those of us that use alternative processes face many of these dangers. One simply needs to decide for him/herself if s/he is willing to assume the risks involved.

+1

I cringe at some of the things I have seen. A tutorial on making a Deguerreotype. Showing how to fix the plate with potassium cyanide solution. The demonstrator was wearing wrist length rubber gloves while pouring the solution on the plate but no face shield or lab apron.

 

[CropDusterMan]

People get a little panicky and nervous when it comes to chemicals, when half the time, you have things already under your sink that are more lethal. Be smart and responsible
and you have nothing to fear. Risk is removed with safe work habits.

Common sense prevails. Wear your PPE (Personal Protective Equip)...apron, gloves, safety glasses, and if mixing it in powder form, a dust mask. I have used PYRO for
a long time, use PMK exclusively, and never spilled a drop...it's about planning and being safe in your work methods. Don't let people scare you away from using a fantastic developer such
as PYRO. I also recommend the premixed solutions. And the comment about Weston...there was little known about safe handling habits of chemicals in Westons day...
hell, guys used to load crop dusting airplanes with their bare hands in the 50's, but education has lead to safe use of chemicals. Also, I can't stress enough...be a steward of the land and dispose of your chemicals responsibly!

 

[CropDusterMan]

You'd be surprised how tame a lot of the chemicals are these days...the push towards "organic".
It's laughable...a lot of the organic chemicals are more dangerous than the conventional pesticides.

Most people think "Organic" is pesticide free. Laughable. I make a lot of money off of Organic farmers.


APUGUSER19 said:
"Man, that crop chemistry of any kind I'm sure, is some wicked stuff in the chronic exposure department.You could make zombies with stuff like that."

Common misconception.
There is no exposure these days if handlers and applicators do their job correctly and safely.

 

[CropDusterMan]

Except that with commonly excepted yield loss of 30+% due to organic farming methods, your 50 acres only yields 35 acres.

I also grow avocados organic and conventional...the organic pays more money per pound, but the yield loss is considerable. Dammit....I'm getting off topic. PYRO all the way!

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Before this thread veers off to crop dusting and organic foods let me emphasize that people are not wise and careful as evidenced by the yearly Darwin Awards. That person selected from finalists who found a new and novel way of removing their genes from the human gene pool. A wise person weighs the advantages against the dangers. So it is with developing agents like pyrogallol.

 

[Alan Johnson]

As a chemist I would not recommend buying it at all. Pyrogallol is the most toxic of all the common developing agents. It is readily absorbed thru the skin and causes damage to the liver, kidneys, nervous system and bone marrow. Chronic contact with pyrogallol has been suggested as the cause for Edward Weston's neurological symptoms leading to his death. Human LDLo (lowest known lethal dose): Oral: DOSE: 28 mg/kg. Read the following MSDS fact sheet CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY.

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/20010.htm

If you want to use a staining developer then those based on catechol are a safer, but still a dangerous choice. If a spill of the solid pyrogallol should occur in your home then professional decontamination might be required. If you absolutely must try the 510-Pyro developer then buy the premixed version from PF. Further use required safety measures such as nitrile gloves and a lab apron.

I rarely use pyro because I am cautious but perhaps this quote is a bit OTT.
It is found in the urine as a metabolite of tea polyphenols (p17):
Dead Link Removed
It was banned in cosmetics where subjects were continually exposed.
My degree is not in toxicology so IDK if occasional exposure results in risk.

 

[jvoller]

Appreciate all the warnings about pyrogallol; buying 510 Pyro premixed would be a possibility but I do not see that the Formulary sells it....

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Appreciate all the warnings about pyrogallol; buying 510 Pyro premixed would be a possibility but I do not see that the Formulary sells it....

The principle danger with pyro is working with the solid. Once in solution the risk is lessened. Therefore the suggestion to use a premix. You're right PF does not list it. I was surprised since they sell many formulations.

To help in possibly finding an alternative I have two questions. Do you have any experience using pyro developers? Why do you want to use 510-Pyro.

PF does however sell several other staining developers. One of these is the Paul Farber Pyro-Triethanolamime developer which contains pyro and metol. Perhaps that might be a useful substitute.

As far as chemical sourcing is concerned The Chemistry Store (www.chemistrystore.com) sells ascorbic acid triethanolamine and their prices are quite reasonable. They also sell several other chemicals used in photography such as sodium thiosulfate and sodium sulfite. Click on the Products button. I have bought from them on several occasions and have always been satisifed. They ship all over the US.

Just a thought if you are adventurous you could use a less toxic substitute for the pyrogallol and substitute an equal weight of catechol. Catechol would be safer to handle and is used in many staining/tanning developers. Developing times should be similar but as always with something new do some testing.

 

[Alan9940]

Just a thought if you are adventurous you could use a less toxic substitute for the pyrogallol and substitute an equal weight of catechol. Catechol would be safer to handle and is used in many staining/tanning developers. Developing times should be similar but as always with something new do some testing.

A very important distinction between the use of pyrogallol and catechol is the color of the stain. Might be important depending on the anticipated print materials to be used. I would suggest that the OP do some research on staining developers; a very good place to start is with Sandy King's articles on unblinkingeye. A bit of research will answer a lot of questions and, perhaps, provide a direction.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

A very important distinction between the use of pyrogallol and catechol is the color of the stain. Might be important depending on the anticipated print materials to be used. I would suggest that the OP do some research on staining developers; a very good place to start is with Sandy King's articles on unblinkingeye. A bit of research will answer a lot of questions and, perhaps, provide a direction.

Good advice. With developers like 510-Pyro the presence of ascorbic acid and Phenidone lessen the amount of actual stain since they are in competition with the staining developer. So a change to catechol may not be that important. But as I recommended test first.

 

[Alan Johnson]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?8919-Pyro-and-4x5-negatives/page4
In post 33 you may find an opinion from Sandy King.

 

[Wayne]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?8919-Pyro-and-4x5-negatives/page4
In post 33 you may find an opinion from Sandy King.

I've read that quote before. I didn't agree with it then, and don't agree with it now, but I'm open to the evidence. I am not a chemist and most certainly not a doctor or a toxicologist (but I am a skeptic), so I have to rely on things like MSDS. I don't rely on photographers for unbiased advice on such things, and I don't come to the same conclusion based on what I've dug up and read.

I come to the conclusion that pyro and catechol are significantly more toxic than hydroquinone to the point where I won't use the former 2 at all, though the latter is nothing to sneeze at or be careless with. Part of this decision is based on my cautious interpretation of their toxicity and risks, and part is based on knowing that I'm susceptible to doing stupid things (accidents) now and then.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?8919-Pyro-and-4x5-negatives/page4
In post 33 you may find an opinion from Sandy King.

As far as Sandy King's post 33 is concerned I'm sorry but as I have said before photographers make bad chemists. I have a problem with the concoctions that they come up for developers. Yes they do work but are the formulations optimum for what one is looking for in a developer. That is speed, grain, tonality, etc. Unfortunately we will never know since such information is never investigated or published. The two people responsible for Xtol worked for a whole year before they even approached Kodak with the idea. How much total time was spent on say 510-Pyro in comparison?

One has to be careful in interpreting MSDS information. We are not pats or mice. As is often the case the particular lab animal determines the relative toxicity. You will find that the values for rats, mice and rabbits can vary quit a bit.

My main caution is working with the solid developing agents. There is always the possibility of a bad spill. Pyrogallol is sometimes sold in the form of a fluffy powder which is particularly hazardous since it can easily become airborne. Dilute working strength solutions are not that dangerous. The following toxicity scale may be of use: pyrogallol > catechol > hydroquinone. Hydroquinone is used in skin lightening creams and the only cases of poisoning have been from people applying the contents of several jars to their whole body over an extended period. It was only after I began warning of pyrogallol that Unblinkineye and Photographers Formulary began to include warning statements.

As a general comment waterless concentrates like 510-Pyro are particularly problematic since the exclusion of water prevents the use of many constituents used in ordinary developers such as potassium bromide or sodium sulfite. At least for me this limits the usefulness of such developers. In formulating HC-110 Kodak had to manufacture several organic compounds that would provide the same functionality but were also soluble in organic solvents. So we see the use of the adduct of diethanolamine and hydrogen bromide or sulfur dioxide being used instead of potassium bromide or sodium sulfite.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Quite often, if claims are made contrary to the accepted practice, some evidence is presented, but this has not been done here.
Further the misfortunes that are to befall the victims are not discussed.
I have quickly looked up the LD50 for the substances discussed and the results seem to support Mr King's assertion.
Hydroquinone- mouse 350mg/kg, rat 320mg/kg
Pyrogallol-mouse 570mg/kg, rat 790mg/kg.
Catechol-mouse 100mg/kg, rat 390 mg/kg.
This is only a quick look but IMO since it is you making new claims you should provide any evidence.
It is not sufficient evidence to ban hydrogen hydroxide that the results of LD50 tests are not to your satisfaction, they are very often all there is.