Recommendation needed - 'best' B&W roll film/developer combo :-)

Noble · Nov 25, 2012

dorff said:
If you are going to drum scan and print digitally, why not use Portra 160? You can then apply colour filters digitally, instead of having to mount them on the lens and lose light.

Oh, no. No, no, no. Wow. No. As Sirius Glass already mentioned if you use any kind of filter to cut through haze you cannot accomplish that in photoshop. I use deep red filters (3 stops compensation) more often than you would think with landscapes and those things slice through distant haze. I also use deep red filters for portraits of light skinned people in bright sunlight. It makes their skin look flawless. I've seen "experts" make those kinds of statements a truly disturbing amount of times. It really makes me wonder if they ever use filters for B&W photography and compare the results. The effect isn't subtle.

Richard S. (rich815) · Nov 25, 2012

StoneNYC · Nov 25, 2012

rich815 said:
...

Which comment are you grumbling about? LOL

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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dorff · Nov 26, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
Actually NOT. If the photograph is taken with distant haze due to ultraviolet light, a UV filter or Sunlight filter will reduce the haze. If a UV filter or Sunlight filter was not used, no analog or digital process will remove the haze. The light loss due to a UV filter or Sunlight filter is insignificant.

Point taken, and I agree. I was more referring to selective filtration of normally lit scenes - should have been more specific in my response. Although I haven't tried it, I cannot see why one couldn't use any filter one likes with colour negative film, if the output is intended to be scanned and digitally converted to monochrome. Loss of one colour channel or two may of course increase the grain - has someone tried this to be able to comment?

Henning Serger · Nov 27, 2012

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Stone,

PAN F + is a 'traditional' film, I have seen references to 'hybrid' films, no such film exists.... T.Max / DELTA Professional etc are CCG controlled crystal growth films.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

Hello Simon,

due to Robert Shanebrook's excellent book "Making Kodak Film" the current T-Max 400 (TMY-2) is such a film with both classic cubic (3D) and CCG (T-Grain) crystals.
On page 7 there is a cross section picture of the film where this is very good explained and visible.
I quote the text next to the picture:
".....The top, fast emulsion is made of flat, platelet, tabular grains (T-GRAIN).
Below this layer there is a layer containing slower, 3-dimensional (3D), nearly spherical grains......"

Best regards,
Henning

Simon R Galley · Nov 27, 2012

Dear Henning,

I do see what you mean, but the underlayer does not seem to be a 'traditional' or 'random' cubic type of silver grain.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

JBrunner · Nov 27, 2012

As you can see you are getting many opinions. The interesting thing is that most of them are valid recommendations, brought about by the experience and investment of that particular person.

Here's what I would recommend- pick a well known film that seems to offer what you want, one from Ilford for example, and use a popular developer that doesn't have any special character when used normally. Get to know the combination inside out. Once you put in the time you will be able to do some pretty impressive things.

There is no magic bullet, just normal bullets to put in a magic gun. The magic gun is you, if you are willing.

There is no other way.

Henning Serger · Nov 27, 2012

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Henning,

I do see what you mean, but the underlayer does not seem to be a 'traditional' or 'random' cubic type of silver grain.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Hello Simon,

in the cross section picture there is (under the overcoat) on top the (I quote) "Fast Emulsion Layer, Tabular Grains".
And under this layer the "Slow Emulsion Layer, 3 Dimensional Grains".

The next page (9) there is also a cross section picture of Tri-X: And the 3 Dimensional Grains in the layers there look similar in shape compared to the 3D Grains in the TMY-2.

So both from the text in the book, and both cross section pictures it looks like TMY-2 has both traditional and T-Grain crystals.
Maybe Robert and Ron can help us here, I will ask them.

Best regards,
Henning

Noble · Nov 27, 2012

fatso said:
I shoot medium format rollfilm mostly with a SWC, and looking back at some of my old negatives (Ilford Delta 100/D76) they seem a bit grainy...

Paul I rattled off some emulsions and developing techniques that I like but for whatever reason I didn't see the part of your post about Delta 100/D76. I have not used Delta 100 recently and I can't even remember the last time I used D76. So I can't make any comparisons between them and anything else. Just wanted to state that in the interest of full disclosure.

Henning Serger · Nov 28, 2012

Henning Serger said:
Hello Simon,

in the cross section picture there is (under the overcoat) on top the (I quote) "Fast Emulsion Layer, Tabular Grains".
And under this layer the "Slow Emulsion Layer, 3 Dimensional Grains".

The next page (9) there is also a cross section picture of Tri-X: And the 3 Dimensional Grains in the layers there look similar in shape compared to the 3D Grains in the TMY-2.

So both from the text in the book, and both cross section pictures it looks like TMY-2 has both traditional and T-Grain crystals.
Maybe Robert and Ron can help us here, I will ask them.

Best regards,
Henning

Hello Simon,

the question concerning TMY-2 is answered by Robert Shanebrook. His reply to my question (Robert, thanks a lot for your quick reply!):

"In 2007 Kodak made a change in TMY and designated it as TMY-2. The change was to replace the 3D layer with a t-grain layer. So Simon is correct that Kodak TMY-2 is all T-grain now.

I don't know for sure but I expect there are still some color negative films with 3Ds and T-grains. "

O.k., so now we know the source of the confusion: I thought the cross section picture in his book is the current T-Max 400 (TMY-2), but it is indeed the former TMY. Very good to know.

That explains the finer grain and higher resolution of TMY-2 compared to TMY, as well.

Thank you and Robert,
and best regards,
Henning

Photo Engineer · Nov 28, 2012

To repeat some previous comments made in the color forum, I believe that you will find that Kodak Ektar 100, and the Vision family of Motion Picture films use a combined t-grain and 3D (cubic) emulsion. This was announced by Kodak at the introduction of these products.

You will find this information at: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e4046/e4046.pdf

PE

Paul Ozzello · Dec 4, 2012

Helinophoto said:
Nope, as far as I can gather from (there was a url link here which no longer exists), what you find of EFKE and ADOX (25, 50, 100) out there is the remaining rolls from the final stock.

The only 25 ISO film I know of that is in production and avaiable is Rollei Ortho 25 ISO , never tried it though, but if it is in the same class as Rollei retro 80s regarding grain and resolution it could be very good. Digitaltruth has some info on it

Found a review here it may be something that the OP is looking for perhaps...?

I recently developped 6 rolls of Rollei Pan 25 (version 2) which is supposedly the same film as Efke 25. It is pretty fine grain but not as smooth as Agfa 25... I'm pretty happy with it except that as someone already mentionned quality control is pretty poor. In the 3 rolls I've already come across 4 emulsion defects that would have been a major problem if I had been printing in a wet darkroom, thankfully I can 'fix' it after scanning. So while a really nice film, make sure to take several shots just in case...

Several places list this film as being in stock but does anyone know if it discontinued ?

Paul

Paul Ozzello · Dec 4, 2012

Noble said:
Rollei PAN 25 is still available. This is really fine grain stuff.

Try one hour stand developing with Rodinal ≈1:100 and Acros ISO 100, Efke 25, Rollei Pan 25, and Ilford PAN F+. All come out great. I like Efke and Rollei PAN but because of price I buy a lot of Acros 100. I haven't experimented much with Kodak TMAX. You can be pretty cavalier with Rodinal storage and it will last forever at full strength. You don't have to mix up and use liters of it. It is dirt cheap. For one hour stand developing I use 4 mL of Rodinal per a roll of 120 or 35mm. I put the 4 mL of Rodinal in whatever volume of distilled water is appropriate for what I'm developing. The beauty of it is you can develop Efke and Acros in the same tank at the same time. The dilution and time are the same for everything. I invert the tank very gently for 30 seconds at the beginning and then I just leave it alone for an hour. I use a water stop bath and then fix. Give it a try. Allegedly minimizing the agitation helps to reduce grain.

I did not have good results with this technique and 400 ISO film. 100 ISO or slower is beautiful with Rodinal stand.

That's interesting, I"ll have to give stand development a try. How does Acros 100 compare to TMAX 100 ?

Paul Ozzello · Dec 4, 2012

My best looking negatives are the ones made on Agfa 25 and Tech pan. A few years ago I had done some comparisons between techpan and Ilford 100 just by changing film backs of the same scene, there's just no comparison. The SWC can record an incredible amount of detail and outresolves the Delta film. How does Ilford Pan-F compare to Efke 25 (in terms of tonality grain and sharpness ) ?

Recommendation needed - 'best' B&W roll film/developer combo :-)

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