Recommend an Alternative Process - I have no Dark Room

[koraks]

Normally developed Tmax .... probably none. Or I doubt you'd get much contrast.

The problem with TMax 100 in sheet film format is, as @MattKing points out, it quite effectively blocks UV. This is only the 100-speed product, though. Tmax 400 will work fine.
And classic cyanotype has a fairly steep curve, which means that it'll produce fine prints from a negative of moderately low contrast.

Classic cyanotype HD curve in blue, from here. Grade 3 negatives tend to work great for classic cyanotype. The curves of New Cyanotype and Simple Cyanotype are different, and longer (esp. New).

I found these cyanotype kits but they don;t seem to work with negatives?

Cyanotype prints with negatives, always. I recommend you do some reading based on @fgorga's excellent advice in #32.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

These kits (which are invariably traditional cyanotype chemistry) should work just fine with negatives, if you have an appropriate negative. As seen in the search you linked to many folks start out in alt process making photograms with cyanotype instead of printing negatives. However, the process/chemistry is not specific to photographs. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most folks who try cyanotype are perfectly satisifyed with making only photograms.

Regarding 'appropriate negatives'... each alt process is able to print a specific range of tones (i.e. scale). To get the best results from any process one has to match the contrast of the negative to the scale of the process. One can use a 'random' negative and one might be satisfied with the resulting print but it unlikely to yield an optimal print.

With film negatives one needs to tailor the development of the film specifically to the printing process. This requires significant experience. I doubt that most commercial labs are capable of this although you might find a specialist lab that offers this service. I can't add any more detail here as I switched to digital negatives (see below) roughly twenty years ago.

Alternatively, one can use a hybrid process where one begins by developing film as one would for a typical sliver gelatin print. Then one digitizes the negative and applies a 'curve' to the resulting file to match the contrast of the negative to the desired alt process. Lastly one prints this file onto a clear plastic sheet to make a 'digital negative'.

Of course one can also use a completely digital process where one processes a file to make a monochrome image, inverts that image to make a negative, applies a curve and prints a negative (as described above).

All of these approaches to 'appropriate negatives' have a significant learning curve in order to make 'perfect' negatives. Also, note that I have omitted any mention about how those curves are generated in the first place. That is a 'can of worms' best left for another time! ;-)

However, that said, many folks are satisfied with less than perfect negatives for their alt process printing. Thus, you might just start with a few interesting negative already in your possession and see how things go.

THanks Frank. Scanning my negative with my V850 and then adjusting in Lightroom to make a digital negative seems like the best way to go. What kind of a printer is required to make a print on a clear plastic sheet. DO laser printers work?

Once you have the plastic master sheet, what's the process afterwards for cyanotype?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan, to find what neg DR works for Cyanotype (assuming that is what you go with...) just do a ring-around of negatives, all exposed the same, but developed at different times

I imagine it pays to shoot simple shots with simple, broad shapes?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Normally developed Tmax .... probably none. Or I doubt you'd get much contrast.

Alan, to find what neg DR works for Cyanotype (assuming that is what you go with...) just do a ring-around of negatives, all exposed the same, but developed at different times

Assuming I don;t go with digital megatives, would Tri-X work directly with Cyanotype? I could ask the lab to push or pull. Would that help?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan, I had the same thoughts about two months ago after watching a video by a member here about making Kallitypes, and I decided that I had to give it a go.

Since I sold off most of my darkroom gear about 20 years ago in favour of digital for production work, I've been mainly shooting MF and LF film in my spare time, scanning it with a V850, and then printing on a Canon Pro10s. I've been happy with the results, but recently with more spare time on my hands decided to get my hands wetter again.

The best bet to start is with a visit to alternativephotography.com.

I started with the traditional Cyanotype process in order to a whole process working in my brain. It's quite steep learning how to create a digital internegative and you will go through lots of Chemistry, paper and transparency film getting something acceptable. Took me about 3 weeks to get a nice cyanotype from a MF negative. Keep in mind you have to iterating until you get the result you are looking for. You need to keep a lot of notes.

Once I had that nutted out, I started with Kallitype - that was faster as I already had the iteration process down and just had to get all the chemical side down.

You will spend a lot of time and materials getting an acceptable print, which is a shocker if you've been doing digital for a while.

If you're thinking of going straight from film to print and skipping the digital interneg, you're going to have to find an exposure and processing system that gives a negative suitable for the process - personally I think printing a digital negative is the best route.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Here is my take on the original question...

1) Cyanotype is the typical 'gateway' into alternative process printing. The chemicals are inexpensive. The solutions needed are simple to make and the processing trivial. Van Dyke Brown prints are almost as simple and therefore also a good choice. However, being a silver based process it is a bit more expensive than cyanotype which is iron-based.

There are multiple variations of cyanotype but the classic version is probably a good place to start, especially if you use dilute acid (vinegar or citric acid) for the first wash instead of plain water.

If you want to get started without having to weigh solids and mix solutions, kits for these process (and many others) are available. Bostick & Sullivan and the Photographers Formulary are the two main suppliers.

2) Initially, use a paper that is made for alternative process printing or one that is known to work well with the process you choose without needed to pre-treat it. Using a variety of papers is part of the fun of alt process printing. However, this aspect is best left to explore once you can make prints reliably.

The alt process specific papers (Hahn. Platinum Rag, Legion Revere Platinum and Arches Platine, are the 'big ones') are relatively expensive but will eliminate one variable (i.e. source of failure) from your learning process.

A good source of information on paper is Chris Anderson's 'massive paper chart', see: https://www.alternativephotography.com/massive-paper-chart/. The paid version is well worth the small price.

3) Buy or make a printing frame with a split back, it is especially useful for printing out process such as cyanotype and Van Dyke. There is lots of good information regarding printing frames, here: https://www.alternativephotography.com/diy-contact-printing-frames-for-alt-photo/ and here: https://www.alternativephotography.com/buy-printing-frame-reviews/

4) Initially, use the sun as a light source for exposure. You can't beat the price. If you want an artificial source, consider 495 nm LEDs. Again, lots of good info at: https://www.alternativephotography.com/diy-uv-light-boxes-alternative-photography/

5) Have you noticed a pattern in then last few items?! https://www.alternativephotography.com/ is a source of much great information about alt process printing.

Other good sources are books by James (https://www.amazon.com/Book-Alternative-Photographic-Processes/dp/1285089316) which is, alas priced like a textbook or one by Enfield (https://www.amazon.com/Enfields-Guide-Photographic-Alternative-Processes/dp/1138229075). There are others but those are the ones I am most familiar with.

Also very good are the series of books (see: https://www.routledge.com/Contempor...rnative-Process-Photography/book-series/CPAPP) edited by Chris Anderson. These books are narrower in scope than those cited above but are very, very good.

6) As for a working space, one does not need a darkroom nor does one need running water.

Remember that many of these processes were invented in the last half of the 19th century before indoor was common. I have made cyanotypes at a remote cabin with no electricity nor running water. I hauled water from the lake.

One does not even need a particularly dim room these days.

What one needs is a space that excludes UV light (sunlight and fluorescent lights), a source of water and a place to get rid of waste water. Some counter or table space is also very handy.

I generally work in my basement with all of the lights ON! The lights are warm LED bulbs which replaced compact fluorescent bulbs in the ceiling fixtures. I haul water/waste water to and from my basement in five gallon buckets.

I wash prints in non-running water. Usually six trays moving prints from tray to tray every 5 or 10 minutes depending on the process. Agitation is intermittent; meaning when I remember to do it between other tasks!

This space works for all of the processes I use: cyanotype (including toning), salted paper (my main process), platinum/palladium and cuprotype.

My final recommendation...

Buy a copy of Chris Anderson's cyanotype book and start there. If you get tired of the 'blue" buy the book in her series written by Annette Golaz on toning cyanotypes with botanical materials.

Experiment and have fun. Every practitioner of alt process printing adapts things to their own circumstances and space. There are no definitive practices in this realm. One key to success is repeatability. Make careful notes as you work so you can reproduce your successes and avoid repeating mistakes. As you work out the kinks, change only a single variable at a time. Did I mention... have fun!

I do have a slop sink in my laundry room. I have no counter space, however. The room is not lightproof but I can close the door and there are no windows. I suppose I could leave the water running to wash the final prints in a tray at the bottom of the sink? Would that work? Will the chemicals stain the sink?

 

[fgorga]

THanks Frank. Scanning my negative with my V850 and then adjusting in Lightroom to make a digital negative seems like the best way to go. What kind of a printer is required to make a print on a clear plastic sheet. DO laser printers work?

Once you have the plastic master sheet, what's the process afterwards for cyanotype?

Most folks use Epson inkjet printers to make digital negatives. However, I imagine that other inkjet printers will also work. I don't know if one can use a laser printer for negatives.

For inkjet negatives I use this material: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H7RSXF2. The brand name material is "Pictorico" but this generic works just fine. I assume that there is a equivalent materiel for laser printers.

Chris Anderson's book (https://www.routledge.com/Cyanotype...porary-Practice/Anderson/p/book/9781138338838) is a great resource on all things cyanotype including how to make digital negatives. Highly recommended.

The www.alternativephotography.com website also has much, detailed information on cyanotype including:

A good starting point for cyanotypes – learn the process – AlternativePhotography.com

www.alternativephotography.com

https://www.alternativephotography.com/cyanotype-classic-process/

Debunking the myths of cyanotype – AlternativePhotography.com

www.alternativephotography.com

 

[koraks]

However, I imagine that other inkjet printers will also work. I don't know if one can use a laser printer for negatives.

To an extent / it depends. For cyanotype, yes. For other processes, dye-based inkjet printers often struggle to lay down sufficient density to get a full contrast range.

Once you have the plastic master sheet, what's the process afterwards for cyanotype?

Bring negative into tight contact with sensitized paper in a contact printing frame. Expose to UV. Wash print until whites are clear.

would Tri-X work directly with Cyanotype?

Yes

I could ask the lab to push or pull. Would that help?

For cyanotype, you could ask them to pull develop and overexpose if the scene is high in contrast. For a low-contrast scene, normal development generally works OK.

I suppose I could leave the water running to wash the final prints in a tray at the bottom of the sink? Would that work? Will the chemicals stain the sink?

Work: yes. Stain: no.

All your questions and many more are answered by reading the resources @fgorga has linked to twice now.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

@Alan Edward Klein Tri-X is a great choice for Alt. processes. I don't know anything about labs or how they work...you'd have to talk to them about it. Maybe they have experience with processing negs for Alt.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

To an extent / it depends. For cyanotype, yes. For other processes, dye-based inkjet printers often struggle to lay down sufficient density to get a full contrast range.


Bring negative into tight contact with sensitized paper in a contact printing frame. Expose to UV. Wash print until whites are clear.



Yes



For cyanotype, you could ask them to pull develop and overexpose if the scene is high in contrast. For a low-contrast scene, normal development generally works OK.


Work: yes. Stain: no.

All your questions and many more are answered by reading the resources @fgorga has linked to twice now.

I'm not interested in the full process description details yet, only make or break questions whether I'm going to do it at all. I;ve got to be able to do this without interfering with the operation of the house, according to my wife.

 

[BrianShaw]

With Plus-X and Tri-X exposed and processed normally (no push/pull), I never had a problem with cyanotype.

If you don't want to use the sink, you can process cyanotype in a bucket with frequent water changes. It's a very flexible clearing process.

For me, in similarly constrained environment, the most difficult part was finding a dark place to dry the coated paper (and finding the best paper for the look I was loooking for).

 

[koraks]

I;ve got to be able to do this without interfering with the operation of the house

You can, don't worry. Many of us have dealt with that situation. Where there's a will, there's a way. As long as your wife can either release you from her company for an hour, or at least position herself on a chair in the corner with a book for the same amount of time, you can make cyanotypes in your own home without posing a threat to its structural integrity, or even its cleanliness for that matter.

The only real make or break question is whether you want to engage in this. And in all honesty, either answer is perfectly valid.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

@Alan Edward Klein Tri-X is a great choice for Alt. processes. I don't know anything about labs or how they work...you'd have to talk to them about it. Maybe they have experience with processing negs for Alt.

I emailed my lab with questions on how to get high contrast sheet negatives. I'll post them here when they answer. Tks.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

With Plus-X and Tri-X exposed and processed normally (no push/pull), I never had a problem with cyanotype.

If you don't want to use the sink, you can process cyanotype in a bucket with frequent water changes. It's a very flexible clearing process.

For me, in similarly constrained environment, the most difficult part was finding a dark place to dry the coated paper (and finding the best paper for the look I was loooking for).

Does the paper continue to develop even after you wash it? Is there another way to fix it besides drying?

 

[BrianShaw]

Does the paper continue to develop even after you wash it? Is there another way to fix it besides drying?

No. Washing is to rid the paper of extraneous chemistry and clear the white. Cyanotype isn't "fixed" in the traditional sense of that word. The Prussian Blue is stable; It's the excess chemistry tht is unstable and needs to be removed.

I really suggest you read about the process in one of the simple end-to-end explanations suggested earlier.

The part you highlighted is after the chemistry is coated onto the paper, when the coated paper becomes light sensitive after drying; before exposure.

 

[BrianShaw]

P.S. I understand why some of those other references seem overwhelming. Try this one for an exceedingly basic explationof the process; It's a really quick read:

Cyanotypes: The origins of photography | Kew

Discover one of the oldest photographic printing processes in the history of photography.

www.kew.org

How do cyanotypes work?​

When ferric ammonium citrate or ferric ammonium oxalate is mixed with potassium ferricyanide, it becomes sensitive to UV light.

These chemicals can be painted onto paper or fabric and left to dry in a dark room. Once dry, objects can be arranged onto the paper and placed in the sun.

The UV rays from the sun react with the chemicals on the paper to create the recognisable cyan-blue background. Where the paper has been covered with an object it will remain white.

Once the chemicals are rinsed off with water, fixing the print so it is no longer sensitive to the sun, you are left with a beautiful print.

 

[koraks]

I emailed my lab with questions on how to get high contrast sheet negatives. I'll post them here when they answer. Tks.

Please note that you don't want very high-contrast negatives for classic cyanotype. You actually want them to be a bit on the low-contrast side, but with plenty of separation in the shadows. Also, 'high contrast' is very subjective; if the lab is worth their salt, they should reply with a follow-up question what you need specifically. For instance, Van Dyke brown likes 'high contrast' negatives, but so does salted paper, but the specific requirements are significantly different.

 

[Don_ih]

@Alan Edward Klein -- so disregard what I said about Tmax, since others have used it successfully. If you already have normal contrast negatives, you're all set.