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Recognition, titles: Fostering improvement or vanity and gatekeeping? - e.g. Royal Photographic Society's ARPS and LRPS

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@koraks “idealistic organization “. I doubt that any not-for-profit professional society would use those words. While most have ideals and standards they maintain, it seems that your use of the word differs. They are at their hearts small businesses that struggle to survive to achieve their goals. And generally it’s quite a struggle to fund the organization and keep the mission moving. Memberships and endowments often are barely enough. Conferences and book sales help. Maintaining active members is paramount, whatever it takes to accomplish that. There’s always attrition and new members but steady income and participation of established members is really important.
 
That is the longest title @ photrio I have ever seen..Congratulations.
It was a little shorter originally, but it was modified later on to add nuance.

@BrianShaw re:RPS working as 'small businesses', I recognize what you said but avoided the term 'business' because I feel that's more of a commercially-oriented kind of entity where the economic dimension takes precedence. Still, it's undeniable that not-for-profit organizations like RPS also have an economic dimension to their operations. I also acknowledge that it's a perpetual challenge to keep such an endeavor funded.

I'd like to thank once again @RalphLambrecht @cliveh and @David Lingham for their insightful, first-hand contributions. I understand your motivations a little better now and can imagine why each of you chose to proceed the way you did. I also recognize that some of the questions I expressed initially do indeed appear to be confirmed in your accounts; i.e. that it's not always clear what the sustainable added value of these titles are and how these titles relate to development (or perhaps better put: that the title and the development process are loosely coupled).
 
I'm a member of the RPS (I first joined as a student around 1966, but let my membership lapse until recently), and never sought these qualifications, ARPS etc. However in 2023 I was awarded their Progress Medal and Hon FRPS for science-related work ... I should add this was a complete surprise, totally unsolicited, and given for work I did nearly 50 years ago which turned out afterwards to have some impact.

I can't really comment on why people apply for ARPS etc, but would like to point out that the standard of photography, in diverse areas, exhibited by the RPS is amazingly high. As an example, look at any edition of their bi-monthly Journal, which has a truly outstanding section of prints. They are not solely "old fashioned" on the one hand or "modern" on the other, just a collection of really really interesting photos of exceptional quality.

So perhaps having their programme of qualifications is all part of raising the standard of photography?
 
I'm a member of the RPS (I first joined as a student around 1966, but let my membership lapse until recently), and never sought these qualifications, ARPS etc. However in 2023 I was awarded their Progress Medal and Hon FRPS for science-related work ... I should add this was a complete surprise, totally unsolicited, and given for work I did nearly 50 years ago which turned out afterwards to have some impact.

I can't really comment on why people apply for ARPS etc, but would like to point out that the standard of photography, in diverse areas, exhibited by the RPS is amazingly high. As an example, look at any edition of their bi-monthly Journal, which has a truly outstanding section of prints. They are not solely "old fashioned" on the one hand or "modern" on the other, just a collection of really really interesting photos of exceptional quality.

So perhaps having their programme of qualifications is all part of raising the standard of photography?

That, plus inspiring the future. Folks in professional societies range from the novice to the master. At each level there are differnt needs/interests that such societies fufill. The accolades allocated to the masters often serve to inspire the novices. That alone is a very noble goal. Most professional societies have some sort of special member level. Sometimes it seems like a "good old boys club" and it's easy to get snarky and think of it only as such. (And sometimes it's easily justified!) But deeper introspection could lead to a realization that the folks elevated to such positions, whether via self-application or external nomination, deserve such accolades whether everyone agrees or not.
 
But deeper introspection could lead to a realization that the folks elevated to such positions, whether via self-application or external nomination, deserve such accolades whether everyone agrees or not.
But that's kind of hard to tell in the absence of clear insight into the criteria applied or the philosophy behind them.
 
But that's kind of hard to tell in the absence of clear insight into the criteria applied or the philosophy behind them.

To an outsider, that is correct. Also to a cynic that is correct. Both are understandable...
 
I see; so the titles should be understood as an 'internal affair' within the RPS community proper?

You might be implying something that I don’t fully understand. The criteria is publicly divulged. You’re talented enough with internet searching to have answered that. But here it is; not too sure what else anyone would want to know.


And going back to one of your initial questions about who the licensure committee is and what their exact judgements may be based on (beyond the criteria discribed in their criteria publication), yes it likely is an internal affair. That would be consistent with the professional societies that I've been participatory throughout my career. This seems the most that can be garnered from their website:

Distinctions and Qualifications
Head of Distinctions: Andy Moore LRPS
Distinctions Assistant: Simon Vercoe LRPS
 
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I see; so the titles should be understood as an 'internal affair' within the RPS community proper?

With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

As @BrianShaw points out, all this is public information. I'm not here to defend everything about the RPS but I do not understand your hostility towards an organisation that's basically doing good.
 
Chris, this is nothing compared to some of the internal squabbles and politics I've seen inside other professional societies...
 
Chris, this is nothing compared to some of the internal squabbles and politics I've seen inside other professional societies...

By the way, the RPS Journal occasionally publishes the photos of successful LRPS/ARPS/FRPS awardees ... essentially to illustrate the standards for everyone to see ... and I'm super-impressed with them. If only I could take such good pictures!
 
So perhaps having their programme of qualifications is all part of raising the standard of photography?

The intent and the actuality seem have been on rather divergent paths for 20-30 years or more, not helped by criteria that often seems to value a narrowly prescriptive right/wrong binary test of questionable aspects of technique over a broader analysis of the quality as good/bad & how well the intent was turned into actuality. I think the rapid growth of undergraduate and MFA courses at end of the 20th Century and the consequent encroachment of the academy (and conceptualism) also played a part in this shift away from organisations like the RPS.
 
The intent and the actuality seem have been on rather divergent paths for 20-30 years or more, not helped by criteria that often seems to value a narrowly prescriptive right/wrong binary test of questionable aspects of technique over a broader analysis of the quality as good/bad & how well the intent was turned into actuality. I think the rapid growth of undergraduate and MFA courses at end of the 20th Century and the consequent encroachment of the academy (and conceptualism) also played a part in this shift away from organisations like the RPS.

I'm sure there's some truth in your assessment, but have you actually seen the samples of LRPS/ARPS/FRPS shown occasionally (1-2 issues per year) in the RPS Journal? They are VERY diverse, all kinds of styles/subjects/genres and ... in my opinion ... of very high quality. (I should add, not all to my taste, but the quality is indisputable.) So I think there is a contribution to raising standards and encouraging younger photographers from a range of backgrounds.

As an aside, in 1961, I submitted a photo (in the under 15 class) to an RPS-affiliated competition and it got an "award" ... I can't remember what the award was, but it meant a lot to me at the time and it led to a lifetime of interest and activity in photography and photographic/imaging science. I've no interest now in awards or competitions, but I'm certainly not going to criticise them; they serve a useful ... perhaps transitory ...purpose for some.
 
You might be implying something that I don’t fully understand. The criteria is publicly divulged.

I did indeed find the page you linked to and I had a look at the ARPS Requirements pdf that can be downloaded there. The criteria listed refer mostly to the format the work is presented in to the jury (or whatever entity it is that does the assessment). I read this before making this thread and it was in fact part of what triggered the question. It seems public, but if you click through and try to find out what it's really about, it doesn't appear to be there.

With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
That's why I asked.

I didn't imply the RPS isn't "doing good". I'm wondering about how the titles work, because there are multiple possible perspectives to it. So far, you and others have mentioned a number of (beginnings of) rationales. I thanked people for that; it's useful and the kind of stuff I was looking for. What's with the angry attitude?
 
It seems public, but if you click through and try to find out what it's really about, it doesn't appear to be there.
a number of (beginnings of) rationales

I guess I have no idea what you really want to know then because "what it's really about" implies something but nothing at the same time. The process is well described and the assessment team is identified (despite my earlier thoughts that they might not be). If you want to know what goes on in their minds and how they rationalize their assessments, I guess we'll never know. That seems beyond the scope of detail that is meaningful to most people. Perhaps what's missing from their criteria that would scratch your itch is that it seems a very subjective assessment by a panel of esteemed and acknowledged experts. But is seems subjective so there could be variability in assessment and disagreement between indiviual panel members. That does not surprise me as it seems the norm for such distinctions. Unlike the Professional Engineer certification, for example, which is a more objective test scenario. If you want to know why anyone would want to seek such a distinction, it seems that has been adddressed already. It might be one of thosse things where it will never be satisfactorily ansered unless you're the kind of person to get either personal satisfaction or see it as career building from such things.
 
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It's possible to say something about criteria while still allowing subjectivity and case-sensitivity in the assessment. Moreover, I think mentioning the actual criteria (not just the process or the jurors) is relevant as the title obviously is intended to reflect some kind of competence, expertise and/or proficiency. It's relevant to define what that looks like. The reason I'm pressing this point is because I feel this is the exact issue that would be useful for the outside world and beyond the scope of having a title for reasons like recognition/reputation, economic motives or as a precondition for certain functions within the group (I assume that's also the case, but it's not been mentioned so far). In short, it's something all of us could benefit from. I was/am kind of hoping that if we peel off the different motives, layers and aspects of this system of titles, we get to a couple of things that could be useful beyond the ecosystem of the RPS itself.
 
With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
That's why I asked.

I didn't imply the RPS isn't "doing good". I'm wondering about how the titles work, because there are multiple possible perspectives to it. So far, you and others have mentioned a number of (beginnings of) rationales. I thanked people for that; it's useful and the kind of stuff I was looking for. What's with the angry attitude?

Deep Sigh! I'm not angry. It's good to know that you agree with my sentiments, that's a first I think.

I urge you to look at a few issues of the RPS Journal that show examples of the portfolios submitted for LRPS/ARPS/FRPS. They are very varied in style and content, and in my opinion the quality is very high. I suspect in many cases the submissions were the result of a lot of hard work and an attempt at self-improvement. What's not to like?

Criticising organisations (especially older well-established ones) is so easy from the outside ... indeed it's almost fashionable in these days of blogs and self-appointed influencers. People join professional/amateur societies for all kinds of reasons, including to learn more about their subject directly from their peers. What's the problem with that?
 
I don't criticize the organization as such, nor the work of the holders of said titles. It looks like you take offense at something I just didn't say or even think. This is not about me or my views; you're having a conversation with an imagined opponent.
 
The reason I'm pressing this point is because I feel this is the exact issue that would be useful for the outside world and beyond the scope of having a title for reasons like recognition/reputation, economic motives or as a precondition for certain functions within the group (I assume that's also the case, but it's not been mentioned so far). In short, it's something all of us could benefit from. I was/am kind of hoping that if we peel off the different motives, layers and aspects of this system of titles, we get to a couple of things that could be useful beyond the ecosystem of the RPS itself.
How so? How could/would this change our lives or behaviour?

The first paragraph of post #39 really says it all. Towit: The titles/levels are formal peer recognition by a bonifide and well-respected professional society of a history of a member's knowledge and excellence. Nothing more; nothing less. In publishing terms it's like the difference between a formal peer-reviewed journal, published book/magazine, and random web site or forum posting. It speaks to credibility, although there are exceptions in all of the afore mentioned situations. But in general, those titles reflect the acknowledged credibility of those who have been awarded the title. That is the usefulness beyond "the ecosysystem of RPS itself" and has been so for at least a century. It really is that simple.

To me, those titles basically give me confidence that the writer is qualified to have a a valid opinion, recommendation, and position in discussions/debates within their knowledge areas. Not always one that I personally choose to follow, but a valid one that's worth considering nonethless. And to me, all of the levels inspire that confidence. Perhaps the difference between the levels means more to those who hold them but not so much to me. The all are essentially formal peer verification of professional competence.

Having participated in several professional societies throughout my career, ranging from basic wet-behond-the-ear member to leadership and sponsorship positions, I've noticed that they are interesting in how they are received, both internally and externally. Some folks crave the camaraderie and education of professional associations, some crave the information the associations provide, and others crave the opportunity to promote through the ranks. The personal motivations aren't really of much interest as they are very varied. But there are trends, which really don't matter much. And just as much, there are folks who do not share those predilictions; Some are quite vocal about their disinterest or skepticism; others just go about their business quietly.

But I'm totally puzzled. You seem to have received answers to your questions yet poke that "there's something more". Perhaps both sides of the discussion is at a bit of a point of frustrations because it seems a lot like when a child repeatedly asking "why?" to questions that we think/know are already well known and well explained. Anyone who has children knows that frustration...

Perhaps this discussion has begun and is ending with "drama" too. :smile:
 
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The titles represent some kind of proficiency in photography. How is this operationalized? What are the criteria? What does the jury look for? This could be used by others outside the RPS as well for their own development. Many people seem to want to advance their photography in some way. Learning about what the RPS people are looking for could be inspiring to others.
 
The titles represent some kind of proficiency in photography. How is this operationalized? What are the criteria? What does the jury look for? This could be used by others outside the RPS as well for their own development. Many people seem to want to advance their photography in some way. Learning about what the RPS people are looking for could be inspiring to others.

Not sure exactly what you include in "operationalize". It seems that those who hold these positions teach, publish, and inspire (both within RPS and without)... and are granted the honor of putting the respective title after their name as a measure of credibility and pride. What more could be expected; It's like putting DDS or MD or Phd after one's name as appropriate. Simple and traditional.

The rest of your questions appears to be explained on their website. The critieria are there. If they are too vague, well not sure what could be done about that. A video of an assessment is there for all to view. If that's 'idealized" and not representative, well not sure what could be done about that. I find both though be mildly inspiring as they seem to be reasonable things to consider in everyone's photography. Regarding inspiring others, it seem that RPS goes way above and beyond as they make their journal freely available to anyone willing to read it. Most professional societies use those as revenue generators.

At this point, the discussion seems to be going around in circles. You are not finding what you need and nobody seems to be able to help you to your satisfaction. Good luck with your quest. Over and out.
 
You are not finding what you need

To the contrary; I've learned many things that I was curious about in your and other people's responses, especially from those who are involved in the RPS, hold these titles etc. I think it's very interesting. That doesn't remove the possibility of follow-up questions, which there will probably always be. I'm OK with that and I'm also Ok with the fact that at some point those questions may go beyond the scope of what people can or want to discuss. That's OK; no obligations. Thanks for sharing your insights, as I've also said to others several times; these 'thank yous' were sincere!
 
The titles represent some kind of proficiency in photography. How is this operationalized? What are the criteria? What does the jury look for? This could be used by others outside the RPS as well for their own development. Many people seem to want to advance their photography in some way. Learning about what the RPS people are looking for could be inspiring to others.

taken from the RPS website: -

Licentiate (LRPS)

To become a Licentiate of The Society, applicants must show variety in approach and techniques but not necessarily in subject matter. Demanding but achievable for most dedicated photographers.

Associate (ARPS)

Requires a body of work/project of a high standard and a written Statement of Intent. Strong technical ability using techniques and photographic practices appropriate to the subject.

Fellowship (FRPS)

Our highest level of Distinction. Requires a distinctive and cohesive body of work/project accompanied by a written Statement of Intent.
 
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